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What if I want to develop applications using the latest dependency versions on a stable system? Are flatpak/docker/podman the recommended solutions?

by curt15 3y ago

tremon 3y ago
If you want the latest dependencies, you don't have a stable system: it shifts with the versions of your dependencies. In Debian, you would use an unstable/sid chroot with the new versions (see debootstrap).
- josephg 3y ago
  That’s a weird usage of the term “stable”. Is the latest rustc release unstable? Are there bugs in nodejs? It’s been years since a nodejs bug affected me. If anything you usually have fewer problems with newer toolchains, because new features get used by your dependencies. The version of rustc or nodejs that Debian considers “stable” won’t be able to run a lot of software that I want to run. And despite the name, “unstable” Debian is still usually 6 months behind the latest version of most packages. That’s an eternity for new things like Zig.
  - tremon 3y ago
    It's the Debian usage of the term "stable". Seems kinda relevant for the discussion, at least to me. From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStability https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStability: This is what Debian's Stable name means: that, once released, the operating system remains relatively unchanging over time. > That’s an eternity for new things like Zig So why isn't Zig making sure that their latest releases are available in Debian Sid? Anyone can be a Debian Maintainer, and if they don't want to invest their time in it, they just need an existing DM to sponsor their uploads.
    - josephg 3y ago
      Yeah it’s relevant. It’s just, not how a lot of software is made today. I don’t want my browser or my compiler to remain unchanged. I want it to be evergreen. Stop updating your web browser and in a year or two websites will stop working properly. As for why don’t the zig developers become official Debian maintainers, gentoo maintainers, redhat maintainers, FreeBSD maintainers, homebrew maintainers and so on - well, probably because they’re too busy making zig. There are way too many unix package managers to support without help. Especially if doing so requires joining mailing lists, manual testing and so on. I wish there was a way to automate making all those packages across different unix distributions, but I can see why that’s a hard problem.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
Short answer: Yes. Longer answer: In Debian's arrangement, the idea is that the distribution moves together, so it doesn't have a native idea of "fast moving packages on top of slow moving base packages". There are other systems where this isn't the case; AUIU you can run bleeding-edge packages on a stable FreeBSD base system (largely because the BSDs have a very strong separation of the base OS from everything on top), and NixOS is quite happy, especially with flakes but you could do it other ways, to go as far as "start with stable NixOS but then add packages X, Y, Z from unstable, and don't provide libFoo at all in a global context but provide libFoo 1.0 to package A, libFoo 2.1 to package B, and libFoo 3.0g straight from git for package C". But in Debian, the equivalent is probably running a newer version in a chroot or container, yes.

What if I want to develop applications using the latest dependency versions on a stable system? Are flatpak/docker/podman the recommended solutions?

by curt15 3y ago

What if I want to develop applications using the latest dependency versions on a stable system? Are flatpak/docker/podman the recommended solutions?

tremon 3y ago

If you want the latest dependencies, you don't have a stable system: it shifts with the versions of your dependencies. In Debian, you would use an unstable/sid chroot with the new versions (see debootstrap).

josephg 3y ago
That’s a weird usage of the term “stable”. Is the latest rustc release unstable? Are there bugs in nodejs? It’s been years since a nodejs bug affected me. If anything you usually have fewer problems with newer toolchains, because new features get used by your dependencies. The version of rustc or nodejs that Debian considers “stable” won’t be able to run a lot of software that I want to run. And despite the name, “unstable” Debian is still usually 6 months behind the latest version of most packages. That’s an eternity for new things like Zig.
- tremon 3y ago
  It's the Debian usage of the term "stable". Seems kinda relevant for the discussion, at least to me. From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStability https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStability: This is what Debian's Stable name means: that, once released, the operating system remains relatively unchanging over time. > That’s an eternity for new things like Zig So why isn't Zig making sure that their latest releases are available in Debian Sid? Anyone can be a Debian Maintainer, and if they don't want to invest their time in it, they just need an existing DM to sponsor their uploads.
  - josephg 3y ago
    Yeah it’s relevant. It’s just, not how a lot of software is made today. I don’t want my browser or my compiler to remain unchanged. I want it to be evergreen. Stop updating your web browser and in a year or two websites will stop working properly. As for why don’t the zig developers become official Debian maintainers, gentoo maintainers, redhat maintainers, FreeBSD maintainers, homebrew maintainers and so on - well, probably because they’re too busy making zig. There are way too many unix package managers to support without help. Especially if doing so requires joining mailing lists, manual testing and so on. I wish there was a way to automate making all those packages across different unix distributions, but I can see why that’s a hard problem.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

Short answer: Yes. Longer answer: In Debian's arrangement, the idea is that the distribution moves together, so it doesn't have a native idea of "fast moving packages on top of slow moving base packages". There are other systems where this isn't the case; AUIU you can run bleeding-edge packages on a stable FreeBSD base system (largely because the BSDs have a very strong separation of the base OS from everything on top), and NixOS is quite happy, especially with flakes but you could do it other ways, to go as far as "start with stable NixOS but then add packages X, Y, Z from unstable, and don't provide libFoo at all in a global context but provide libFoo 1.0 to package A, libFoo 2.1 to package B, and libFoo 3.0g straight from git for package C". But in Debian, the equivalent is probably running a newer version in a chroot or container, yes.