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I'm not sure I understand this. Wouldn't developers who need code-level assistance (i.e. have more than simple "feedback") submit a Technical Support Incident (

I'm not sure I understand this. Wouldn't developers who need code-level assistance (i.e. have more than simple "feedback") submit a Technical Support Incident (https://developer.apple.com/support/technical/ https://developer.apple.com/support/technical/)?

saagarjha 3y ago
Developers use feedback to file bugs. Why would they spend money to get help from Apple on how to do that?
- mistrial9 3y ago
  "developers are a profit center" is your answer
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > Developers use feedback to file bugs. Yes, and they're specifically instructed to file TSIs if they need a workaround in the meantime. https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting/ https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting/ Should developers not have to do both? Sure. Should they ignore Apple's instructions and still expect to get help? Not sure.
  - loumf 3y ago
    From experience, I have used a TSI when I need help with a bug in Apple's products. Every single time (about 5x) they "refunded" the TSI because it was an Apple bug. I have never had to pay for extra TSIs -- I use the ones that come with my developer account and (so far) they are always refunded. I don't know why people hoard them -- they are use it or lose it every year. I have also gone to a virtual dev lab during WWDC which was awesome. Lots of "free" help from an Apple engineer (basically 30 minute speed run of lot of questions about Apple Watch workout app development). I have mixed experience with Feedbacks. I have filed dozens that I actually care about and maybe 10% were a decent experience. The rest were essentially ignored.
  - latexr 3y ago
    I filed a TSI earlier this year. It look them six months to reply, and even then it was to ask for information that had already been given in the original report. By then I had already figured out what was causing my problem and found a workaround. Still, I thanked the developer for their time, described my approach and asked if there were a less hacky way to do it. I never got a reply.
happytoexplain 3y ago
Read the post - it's about bug reporting, not assistance with code or simple feedback. The feedback assistant is primarily for reporting bugs. Bugs that impact developers.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Reading the post is how I learned the developer didn't file Technical Support Incidents (TSIs).
  - agsnu 3y ago
    Almost every time, developer technical support will look at the internal bug and if there is no known workaround will say “sorry that’s our bug and engineering is investigating, we don’t have anything to tell you, please keep an eye on the feedback and we will update you if anything changes - in the meantime here’s your TSI refunded”.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      Ooof. That’s a terrible experience, thank you for sharing.
    - e28eta 3y ago
      In that process though, you’ve had someone at Apple verify that your issue is legitimate, and that issue has probably shown up in a place they care about (DTS metrics) Two things that simply filing a feedback issue doesn’t seem to reliably do. I’m suspect a concerted effort to get developers using their TSIs for bug reporting would backfire (stop refunding them? remove the program?), but I think it’s an interesting idea given how cheap the TSIs are for developers.
      - agsnu 3y ago
        Sure and I don’t mean to minimise the value/effort - I’m sure the “look at” may involve actually investigating the issue themselves by looking at the implementation, speaking with the responsible engineers, etc. I am also sure it is a hard problem to solve - while Apple is massive and well resourced these days their developer community is also humongous and I am sure there is a tremendous amount of noise. But my point is merely - TSIs are not a panacea
speedyapoc 3y ago
Here's an excerpt from the reply that I get from filing a TSI for functionality that is ultimately a bug with iOS. ------------ Hello, Thank you for contacting Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS). We believe this issue is a bug. Please file a bug report via Feedback Assistant (https://feedbackassistant.apple.com https://feedbackassistant.apple.com). For more information on Feedback Assistant, visit https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting. ------------ From here, typically the Feedback Assistant bug report will remain open. For years. With no acknowledgement. I would happily pay Apple a developer rate to fix these bugs. Some of them are massive showstoppers in a large scale production application.
- culi 3y ago
  > I would happily pay Apple a developer rate to fix these bugs. Some of them are massive showstoppers in a large scale production application. Wow that's pretty intense. Any examples of such show-stopping bugs?
  - speedyapoc 3y ago
    Here's a few recent ones: 1. Xcode 15's "Replace Container" feature replaces the app container with incorrect permissions that results in the app not being able to write to its container (ex. the documents directory). This is an important feature for debugging and flat out doesn't work. 2. Apple's AVPlayer has an API called MTAudioProcessingTap which allows you to get access to low level audio data. Since iOS 17.1, it is not possible to have more than one MTAudioProcessingTap running at the same time. 3. AVPlayer's `addPeriodicTimeObserverForInterval` function will randomly stop calling back to its observer, and never recover, when connected to an Apple TV via AirPlay on iOS 17. Issue 1 makes debugging more arduous. Issue 2 stops my app from being able to crossfade audio together or play more than one audio stream at once. Issue 3 requires me to build my own time observer which is further technical debt, versus being able to rely on Apple's API. I've spent hours debugging each of these and trying to find a workaround before resigning myself that it's a platform issue and relegating myself to abandoning that specific API or feature.

saagarjha 3y ago

Developers use feedback to file bugs. Why would they spend money to get help from Apple on how to do that?

mistrial9 3y ago
"developers are a profit center" is your answer
CharlesW 3y ago
> Developers use feedback to file bugs. Yes, and they're specifically instructed to file TSIs if they need a workaround in the meantime. https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting/ https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting/ Should developers not have to do both? Sure. Should they ignore Apple's instructions and still expect to get help? Not sure.
- loumf 3y ago
  From experience, I have used a TSI when I need help with a bug in Apple's products. Every single time (about 5x) they "refunded" the TSI because it was an Apple bug. I have never had to pay for extra TSIs -- I use the ones that come with my developer account and (so far) they are always refunded. I don't know why people hoard them -- they are use it or lose it every year. I have also gone to a virtual dev lab during WWDC which was awesome. Lots of "free" help from an Apple engineer (basically 30 minute speed run of lot of questions about Apple Watch workout app development). I have mixed experience with Feedbacks. I have filed dozens that I actually care about and maybe 10% were a decent experience. The rest were essentially ignored.
- latexr 3y ago
  I filed a TSI earlier this year. It look them six months to reply, and even then it was to ask for information that had already been given in the original report. By then I had already figured out what was causing my problem and found a workaround. Still, I thanked the developer for their time, described my approach and asked if there were a less hacky way to do it. I never got a reply.

happytoexplain 3y ago

Read the post - it's about bug reporting, not assistance with code or simple feedback. The feedback assistant is primarily for reporting bugs. Bugs that impact developers.

CharlesW 3y ago
Reading the post is how I learned the developer didn't file Technical Support Incidents (TSIs).
- agsnu 3y ago
  Almost every time, developer technical support will look at the internal bug and if there is no known workaround will say “sorry that’s our bug and engineering is investigating, we don’t have anything to tell you, please keep an eye on the feedback and we will update you if anything changes - in the meantime here’s your TSI refunded”.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    Ooof. That’s a terrible experience, thank you for sharing.
  - e28eta 3y ago
    In that process though, you’ve had someone at Apple verify that your issue is legitimate, and that issue has probably shown up in a place they care about (DTS metrics) Two things that simply filing a feedback issue doesn’t seem to reliably do. I’m suspect a concerted effort to get developers using their TSIs for bug reporting would backfire (stop refunding them? remove the program?), but I think it’s an interesting idea given how cheap the TSIs are for developers.
    - agsnu 3y ago
      Sure and I don’t mean to minimise the value/effort - I’m sure the “look at” may involve actually investigating the issue themselves by looking at the implementation, speaking with the responsible engineers, etc. I am also sure it is a hard problem to solve - while Apple is massive and well resourced these days their developer community is also humongous and I am sure there is a tremendous amount of noise. But my point is merely - TSIs are not a panacea

speedyapoc 3y ago

Here's an excerpt from the reply that I get from filing a TSI for functionality that is ultimately a bug with iOS. ------------ Hello, Thank you for contacting Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS). We believe this issue is a bug. Please file a bug report via Feedback Assistant (https://feedbackassistant.apple.com https://feedbackassistant.apple.com). For more information on Feedback Assistant, visit https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting https://developer.apple.com/bug-reporting. ------------ From here, typically the Feedback Assistant bug report will remain open. For years. With no acknowledgement. I would happily pay Apple a developer rate to fix these bugs. Some of them are massive showstoppers in a large scale production application.

culi 3y ago
> I would happily pay Apple a developer rate to fix these bugs. Some of them are massive showstoppers in a large scale production application. Wow that's pretty intense. Any examples of such show-stopping bugs?
- speedyapoc 3y ago
  Here's a few recent ones: 1. Xcode 15's "Replace Container" feature replaces the app container with incorrect permissions that results in the app not being able to write to its container (ex. the documents directory). This is an important feature for debugging and flat out doesn't work. 2. Apple's AVPlayer has an API called MTAudioProcessingTap which allows you to get access to low level audio data. Since iOS 17.1, it is not possible to have more than one MTAudioProcessingTap running at the same time. 3. AVPlayer's `addPeriodicTimeObserverForInterval` function will randomly stop calling back to its observer, and never recover, when connected to an Apple TV via AirPlay on iOS 17. Issue 1 makes debugging more arduous. Issue 2 stops my app from being able to crossfade audio together or play more than one audio stream at once. Issue 3 requires me to build my own time observer which is further technical debt, versus being able to rely on Apple's API. I've spent hours debugging each of these and trying to find a workaround before resigning myself that it's a platform issue and relegating myself to abandoning that specific API or feature.