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We are all usurers now. We live in a utopia of usurers, we've forced our children into unforgivable debt to "get a good job" before they have a chance to earn

We are all usurers now. We live in a utopia of usurers, we've forced our children into unforgivable debt to "get a good job" before they have a chance to earn a cent, we've pushed education, housing and now automobiles beyond all reason via debt finance. When they complain we say "Well, you signed the contract" because we've lost all sense of morality in financial and economic matters. We even deny the language necessary to understand their situation to our children: when is the last time the church, let alone an economist, even mentioned the term usury? We need a debt jubilee, as Steve Keen has been saying for a decade now. But we won't, for the same reason he's been ridiculed for a decade now. We small time usurers will find, very late in the game, that our money doesn't mean much when the social contract has been shattered.

glitchc 3y ago
This is flawed. We live in an era of cheap, everflowing credit. When you speak of usury, keep in mind that lenders in earlier times could charge many times the original loan amount, that there was a stigma associated to being in debt, that becoming insolvent would mean a criminal record and jail time. You're comparing that to 2.5%, 5%, 10%, and calling it usurious?? Read some history, would ya? What we have nowadays is mainly a case of mismatched expectations. All children are told that they are special, and that when they become an adult, a car, a nice job and a McMansion awaits them. These statements glossed over the reality of hard work and mapping skills to outcomes. It was never possible to guarantee this for everyone. Now kids are finding out the hard way that not all of them will get what they were promised, and in fact most won't.
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  We have kept rates low (for rich people and governments, poor people still pay through the nose) because we have to to avoid a debt crisis, which has driven up prices to the moon which, again, benefits the existing owners of capital to the detriment of people with little capital, such as our children. Now we are against the wall and have to pick between higher rates and inflation, and we may get both for our trouble. There is a reason the Hebrews, and most stable ancient civilizations, had a debt jubilee roughly every 50 years, and the church, after the Roman empire experience, forbid usury. I would be willing to wager that have read far more, and far different, history that you.
  - glitchc 3y ago
    I highly doubt your claims of historical acumen given the bold statement calling current interest rates "usury". For reference, here's a plot of the real interest rate in US over 150 years: https://www.longtermtrends.net/real-interest-rate/ https://www.longtermtrends.net/real-interest-rate/ As you can see, it's not even close to the 150 year peak. Now, US is a new country, relatively speaking. Let's look at Europe. From Rutgers, have a look at the graph on page 8 detailing interest rates from 1300 CE to now: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://economics.rutgers.edu/downloads-hidden-menu/news-and-events/workshops/money-history-and-finance/1823-paulschmelzing/file&ved=2ahUKEwiIpJ-ZkbCCAxXFE1kFHSxyBYgQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0C2SIam-KD_ihkR3lpjmUt https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=8997844... Speaking of debt jubilees, we are in one right now as far as university and college students are concerned. But certainly, don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
    - turtlesdown11 3y ago
      > Speaking of debt jubilees, we are in one right now as far as university and college students are concerned. What on earth are you talking about? Provide a link of all student loan debt forgiveness please. Don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
      - glitchc 3y ago
        I understand why you are upset. The federal govt. tried to forgive student debt last year and it was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court due to challenges brought by some Republican members. The govt. is trying again this year, as of two days ago: https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administration-continues-efforts-provide-debt-relief-more-student-loan-borrowers https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administ... During the pandemic, the federal govt. paused all interest payments on student debt, effectively setting the payable interest rate to zero. That moratorium ran from 2020 and expired just last month, in Sept 2023: https://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/covid-19 https://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/covid-19 Prior to that, the Obama administration launched a student loan forgiveness programe called PAYE (Pay As You Earn) in Oct 2011, which was later expanded to the REPAYE program to reduce the barrier to entry. Lots of sources available online to read about this, here's one: https://www.debt.org/students/obama-pay-as-you-earn/#:~:text=President%20Barack%20Obama%20first%20announced,20%20years%20of%20qualified%20payments https://www.debt.org/students/obama-pay-as-you-earn/#:~:text....

glitchc 3y ago

This is flawed. We live in an era of cheap, everflowing credit. When you speak of usury, keep in mind that lenders in earlier times could charge many times the original loan amount, that there was a stigma associated to being in debt, that becoming insolvent would mean a criminal record and jail time. You're comparing that to 2.5%, 5%, 10%, and calling it usurious?? Read some history, would ya? What we have nowadays is mainly a case of mismatched expectations. All children are told that they are special, and that when they become an adult, a car, a nice job and a McMansion awaits them. These statements glossed over the reality of hard work and mapping skills to outcomes. It was never possible to guarantee this for everyone. Now kids are finding out the hard way that not all of them will get what they were promised, and in fact most won't.

recursivedoubts 3y ago
We have kept rates low (for rich people and governments, poor people still pay through the nose) because we have to to avoid a debt crisis, which has driven up prices to the moon which, again, benefits the existing owners of capital to the detriment of people with little capital, such as our children. Now we are against the wall and have to pick between higher rates and inflation, and we may get both for our trouble. There is a reason the Hebrews, and most stable ancient civilizations, had a debt jubilee roughly every 50 years, and the church, after the Roman empire experience, forbid usury. I would be willing to wager that have read far more, and far different, history that you.
- glitchc 3y ago
  I highly doubt your claims of historical acumen given the bold statement calling current interest rates "usury". For reference, here's a plot of the real interest rate in US over 150 years: https://www.longtermtrends.net/real-interest-rate/ https://www.longtermtrends.net/real-interest-rate/ As you can see, it's not even close to the 150 year peak. Now, US is a new country, relatively speaking. Let's look at Europe. From Rutgers, have a look at the graph on page 8 detailing interest rates from 1300 CE to now: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://economics.rutgers.edu/downloads-hidden-menu/news-and-events/workshops/money-history-and-finance/1823-paulschmelzing/file&ved=2ahUKEwiIpJ-ZkbCCAxXFE1kFHSxyBYgQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0C2SIam-KD_ihkR3lpjmUt https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=8997844... Speaking of debt jubilees, we are in one right now as far as university and college students are concerned. But certainly, don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
  - turtlesdown11 3y ago
    > Speaking of debt jubilees, we are in one right now as far as university and college students are concerned. What on earth are you talking about? Provide a link of all student loan debt forgiveness please. Don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
    - glitchc 3y ago
      I understand why you are upset. The federal govt. tried to forgive student debt last year and it was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court due to challenges brought by some Republican members. The govt. is trying again this year, as of two days ago: https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administration-continues-efforts-provide-debt-relief-more-student-loan-borrowers https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administ... During the pandemic, the federal govt. paused all interest payments on student debt, effectively setting the payable interest rate to zero. That moratorium ran from 2020 and expired just last month, in Sept 2023: https://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/covid-19 https://studentaid.gov/announcements-events/covid-19 Prior to that, the Obama administration launched a student loan forgiveness programe called PAYE (Pay As You Earn) in Oct 2011, which was later expanded to the REPAYE program to reduce the barrier to entry. Lots of sources available online to read about this, here's one: https://www.debt.org/students/obama-pay-as-you-earn/#:~:text=President%20Barack%20Obama%20first%20announced,20%20years%20of%20qualified%20payments https://www.debt.org/students/obama-pay-as-you-earn/#:~:text....