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FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described

by Swizec 3y ago

FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described in the video, motorcycles perform funny under braking. If you slam the brakes too fast, you have very little grip. ABS kicks in and you’re not stopping. If you progressively brake correctly, you transfer load to the front tyre and increase grip. ABS kicks in, but you’re stopping effectively. Same is true in a car just way way less observable because you have more tyres, better grip, and your foot doesn’t slam the brakes as fast as your hand does. But you can play with this on gravel or on snow. Now here’s the really fun part. Most motorcycle riders most of the time never brake with more than like 60% of theoretical threshold. Here’s a tkacs talk explaining this problem: https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV https://youtu.be/CpaFeZ4xS8g?si=xI_29sLDY82UZziV tldr: If you ride motorcycles, go out and practice. It may save your life. For example, I once almost painted my pants brown braking from 80mph to 60mph because a car spooked me and the ABS kicked in in the middle of the freeway. I was nowhere near actual threshold, but the car made my lizard brain kick in and squeeze the lever too fast.

tomtheelder 3y ago
I'm confused by which part of the conclusion you thought was silly. It seems like you reached the exact same conclusion than the video did, and I don't think it's at all obvious to most people that you are still supposed to threshold brake with ABS.
- Swizec 3y ago
  The silly/unfortunate part is that most people can’t threshold brake in emergency situations. It’s like saying “Doing the perfect thing every time is best”. Which is true but not useful. And they teach you about progressive braking in the first hour of learning to ride. Then they keep repeating it all the time. Every rider on the road knows that they should do this. It’s the execution that is hard.
  - tomtheelder 3y ago
    Yeah and that’s exactly what the video says as well: that people can’t consistently threshold break in emergency situations, which is why ABS is so valuable.
sudosysgen 3y ago
The average car doesn't actually have more grip than the average motorcycle. More surface contact != More traction. Grip in a motorcycle is only really limited by gravity. That's still far better than most cars. The average motorcycle (or bicycle, for that matter) will have little problem hitting 35 degrees lean and therefore produce lateral G forces exceeding that of a typical car. Same is true for deceleration, the average bike is going to be able to slow down as fast or faster than the average car, even if you just let ABS takeover. Motorcycles don't have any disadvantage in grip unless you're comparing them to the supercars that have significant downforce. It really does come down to practice. The machine itself is more than capable. Even a cheap entry level motorcycle is eminently more capable in terms of braking and corner than many sports cars. The cool thing about have two tires, is that you don't need a super fancy suspension setup to be able to corner fast, you just need good tires.
- Swizec 3y ago
  The biggest problem for bikes when it comes to grip, in my experience, is that there is no redundancy. You brake hard, rear grip goes to zero, and you fishtail. Then you have to reduce braking force or you crash. This doesn’t happen in a car because unloading 2 independent tires is very hard. You touch loose gravel going through a corner, front loses grip, you crash. Hitting the same gravel patch with 2+ car tires is unlikely.
  - the_sleaze9 3y ago
    I learned in training to trust your motorcycle to keep it's footing when you encounter quick losses of traction. They had a bike that was equipped with a roll-cage, like an exoskeleton that prevented it from actually flipping but did allow it to lay over enough such that it would. Then they sent the bike through excessive lean angles across slippery surfaces. The riders who adjusted for the slippage wrecked, the ones who just allowed the bike to fish a little didn't. Of course that's assuming you aren't too close to the threshold, etc. But it was eye opening to learn to just kind of hang on and trust the machine a bit.
    - 3y ago

by Swizec 3y ago

tomtheelder 3y ago

I'm confused by which part of the conclusion you thought was silly. It seems like you reached the exact same conclusion than the video did, and I don't think it's at all obvious to most people that you are still supposed to threshold brake with ABS.

Swizec 3y ago
The silly/unfortunate part is that most people can’t threshold brake in emergency situations. It’s like saying “Doing the perfect thing every time is best”. Which is true but not useful. And they teach you about progressive braking in the first hour of learning to ride. Then they keep repeating it all the time. Every rider on the road knows that they should do this. It’s the execution that is hard.
- tomtheelder 3y ago
  Yeah and that’s exactly what the video says as well: that people can’t consistently threshold break in emergency situations, which is why ABS is so valuable.

sudosysgen 3y ago

The average car doesn't actually have more grip than the average motorcycle. More surface contact != More traction. Grip in a motorcycle is only really limited by gravity. That's still far better than most cars. The average motorcycle (or bicycle, for that matter) will have little problem hitting 35 degrees lean and therefore produce lateral G forces exceeding that of a typical car. Same is true for deceleration, the average bike is going to be able to slow down as fast or faster than the average car, even if you just let ABS takeover. Motorcycles don't have any disadvantage in grip unless you're comparing them to the supercars that have significant downforce. It really does come down to practice. The machine itself is more than capable. Even a cheap entry level motorcycle is eminently more capable in terms of braking and corner than many sports cars. The cool thing about have two tires, is that you don't need a super fancy suspension setup to be able to corner fast, you just need good tires.

Swizec 3y ago
The biggest problem for bikes when it comes to grip, in my experience, is that there is no redundancy. You brake hard, rear grip goes to zero, and you fishtail. Then you have to reduce braking force or you crash. This doesn’t happen in a car because unloading 2 independent tires is very hard. You touch loose gravel going through a corner, front loses grip, you crash. Hitting the same gravel patch with 2+ car tires is unlikely.
- the_sleaze9 3y ago
  I learned in training to trust your motorcycle to keep it's footing when you encounter quick losses of traction. They had a bike that was equipped with a roll-cage, like an exoskeleton that prevented it from actually flipping but did allow it to lay over enough such that it would. Then they sent the bike through excessive lean angles across slippery surfaces. The riders who adjusted for the slippage wrecked, the ones who just allowed the bike to fish a little didn't. Of course that's assuming you aren't too close to the threshold, etc. But it was eye opening to learn to just kind of hang on and trust the machine a bit.
  - 3y ago