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California wants to end Cupertino's tax deal with Apple
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- corethree 3y ago[flagged]
- lokar 3y agoI live in California and I think both state and local gov do a good job. The people are competent and nice and the results are pretty good.
- wysewun 3y agoThanks for saying that. Completely agree. Lignins perfect but for some reason California gets overly negative perceptions
- thinkerswell 3y ago[flagged]
- jeffbee 3y agoChildren often need to be protected from their own parents and this fact is broadly accepted by Californians, which is why the people express via their legislature their disdain for reactionary ideas from red states.
- thinkerswell 3y ago[flagged]
- VirusNewbie 3y agoBeing in tech, personally things are going well but CoL has skyrocketed and I worry about future generations. My neighborhood is filled with wealthy foreigners who don’t work, but simply bought a nice house on OC, sometimes as a third or fourth house.
- corethree 3y agoSo do I. Not only do I live here but I grew up here. Roughly 40 years. I respectfully disagree with you. With all the homeless people, housing crisis and companies and people moving out of California largely because of government policies I'd say the government is doing a bad job.
- lokar 3y agoLand use policy is the main driver for cost of living and homelessness. It has little to do with state gov policy (if anything state level policy is focused on fixing the problems over the objections of small cities) and it has nothing to do with execution by state agencies. Housing is not expensive because the gov is somehow incompetent.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoThe way states in USA compete with each other by giving corporations infinite tax breaks is super toxic. Seems if you are big enough you never have to pay tax, but if you are a regular joe opening a nail salon, bend over
- dboreham 3y agoCountries do it too. Looking at you, Ireland.
- robertlagrant 3y agoIt's not toxic. Competition is the only factor that makes things better, or at least stops them getting worse.
- gwright 3y agoI think the competition argument is stronger when considering competition between states. What seems more towards the toxic side is when within a state some businesses get tax breaks and others don't based on lobbying effort and not based on some broader policy that is neutral towards specific businesses.
- robertlagrant 3y agoI agree with that, but it's difficult to say what cities should or shouldn't be able to enact. They do have different requirements to their region, and you wouldn't want e.g. a minimum wage law that might be appropriate for a city to destroy employability in the rest of the state.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoSimple - bespoke deals. You cant jusy offer a deal to Microsoft for example, you have tk offer the same deal/tax breaks to everyone who writes software. If Microsoft doesnt need to pay taxes, then I shouldn't have to either. Or we all pay.
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- leovander 3y ago> This state has become such a shit place to live > Make sf great again by pushing apple out. So the current status of SF must mean the whole state is like that? You started off the sarcastic note but switched to saying seriously, thanks for the sweeping statement. > Actually maybe this deal will make apple move to Texas. Eh, people leave for no individual income tax then get hit by the even higher property taxes.
- Covzire 3y agoQuick napkin math based on simple google searches: Most tech workers will be paying 9.3% in CA State Income tax, let's assume they move to Texas with a $150k job. That's $13,950 fewer taxes paid on income to CA. Moving to Texas they'll pay about an average $2263 more in property Taxes to TX. Probably a bit more realistically so let's say $4000 since they'll probably be buying property that's above the average price. That's still around a $10k/year raise, with lower cost of living and lower crime, and that's assuming they didn't negotiate a raise which is unlikely.
- jeffbee 3y agoInability of online weirdos to understand marginal tax rates: example ++N. The California state income tax on a gross of $150k would be $10730, not $13950. Furthermore, the deductions come off the top marginal rate, so if you are taking the standard deduction, maxing out your 401(k) contributions etc knock several thousand dollars off that figure.
- Covzire 3y agoFair enough but that calculus only gets better for moving the higher the salary is, $150k was just a starting point and I believe most experienced devs in the bay area make a lot more then that, are likely to have families in need of stable communities and their spouse's income might double the reason to move, if they have one.
- jeffbee 3y ago
- doug_durham 3y agoSomeone must have read the priming chapter in "Thinking Fast and Slow", and is trying to apply it to California politics. Repeating the same line over and over on any forum they can find to repeat the same drivel. I'm quite happy with the California government.
- dboreham 3y agoIt's a tactic used by spin meisters in other states to influence people who have probably never been to California. "Look over there at the liberals, see what a mess they've made in their own state".
- corethree 3y agoI live in San Francisco. I've also lived in LA. For roughly all 40 years of my life.
- rpmisms 3y agoI visited California and immediately saw a lot of homeless penises. The spin meisters prepared me correctly.
- dackerlunghack 3y ago[dead]
- rayiner 3y ago[flagged]
- ryder9 3y ago[dead]
- corethree 3y agoNever read the book. So your response is not only incorrect but I have no clue about what you're talking about. A better response is to spell out your disagreement so that I can understand it without having to read a book.
- xwdv 3y agoYup. It’s a shit state now, I used to live up in Northern California for a while. Proposals for the 51st state of Jefferson have been gaining popularity again. I’d love to see it happen as it would probably get me to move back to that region, but not under the current governance.
- webkike 3y agoWhat does SF have to do with Cupertino? You think that ending this deal will make Apple move to Texas? Lol, fat chance, the people that work for Apple are among the very few that can actually afford to live in and enjoy the Bay Area
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- corethree 3y agoI grew up in Cupertino. Cupertino and SF are part of the Bay area. Pretty similar issues. It's worse in SF, but you can still see those RV caravans behind the Cupertino target. It's the same housing crisis happening across the bay.
- sashank_1509 3y agoAll the I love living in California and state government is doing a great job folks, let’s make an honest review of the sunshine state: 1. Homelessness: 6 of the 10 cities with largest homeless population are in Cali. We’ve all been to SF, last time I was there a homeless person literally opened his pants and shit in front of a family restaurant (we all had to leave). So it’s probably the worst in this state compared to all states in US. 2. Housing market: Easily the Bay Area is the worst in the US, probably worst in the entire world to be honest. Entirely self inflicted. 3. Crime: it is NOT NORMAL to have to leave your windows and trunks open when you park to stop criminals from breaking your cars. For the brief period I lived in Seattle, I realized people can just park a car and leave it like that in Seattle, while in sf I’m perpetually paranoid. For this level of government service we have to deal with the highest taxes seen in this country and plans to consistently increase taxes. A bad joke, if Apple ran the government they’d do a better job tomorrow.
- mikeg8 3y agoThe state is massive. Your review can be summarized to the Bay Area or other major metro areas. Saying the entire state sucks because some large progressive cities are having issues found all over our country is a very weak argument.
- rpmisms 3y agoThe majority of the population lives in those metro areas. Seems dark to say it affects most Californians. Source: former NY state resident, the shit flowed downhill from the city, and we all suffered.
- bcrosby95 3y ago1. Numbers-wise, this is largely a problem with #2. Most homeless aren't the sidewalk shitting variety. In general, California cities don't round up and kick out their homeless. I never saw sidewalk shitting homeless when I lived in SF, but my understanding is it's gotten worse since I moved out. I live in a suburb of LA and have never seen sidewalk shit down here, unless it was deposited by a dog. 2. This is largely a city-level problem. The state of California is trying to solve it. The cities are NIMBYs and always want someone else to house all the people. 3. This sounds like an SF problem. Again, I don't live there anymore. Keep in mind that less than 3% of the population of California lives in SF.
- yieldcrv 3y agoanybody wealthy with 5 minutes of asset planning can avoid california taxes thats why they’re not really leaving buy $10mm worth of 30 year US treasuries today and make $500,000/yr, only paying federal income tax on that its really not that hard. (core inflation is lower than the treasury rates right now, and for things that rise faster in sure you’ll figure out how to buy orange juice.) and entrepreneurs have so many deductions against their income its insane, only high earning wage workers have the issue but think their situation just gets worse as they get richer when thats not really the case
- NDizzle 3y agoHow does that saying go? Make the tax payers responsible for the government's poor decisions... take credit for private (in this case, municipality) successes, which aren't shared with the tax payer. I hope this doesn't happen. The government in California is an absolute mess and deserves everything coming to them.
- reidjs 3y agoprivatize the wins, socialize the losses
- robertlagrant 3y agoI don't understand the endless repeating of this phrase. The taxes to spend comes from private individuals and corporations. There are no "social" sources of money.
- ender341341 3y ago> The taxes to spend comes from private individuals and corporations. That is the social. The phrase is saying "If I win I get the prize, if I lose everyone else has to make me whole"
- robertlagrant 3y agoI don't see how that works in this context.
- ender341341 3y agoI don't think that "privatize the wins, socialize the losses" fits the particular article, merely explaining the phrase itself. I think reidjs was replying to the NDizzle's comment by clarifying the saying, not arguing that it's the case here. I'm not entirely sure I follow NDizzle's initial argument, taken at face value I read their argument as the state government shouldn't interfere with local corruption because the state government because they allowed things like this to happen in the first place and they deserve it. And to be clear, I on my use of corruption here, I consider it corruption because apple gets a kickback for directing all the sales tax to Cupertino instead of to all the municipalities where the product is actually be sold to. If apple didn't get that kickback I wouldn't consider it corruption, just stupid tax laws.
- jimbob45 3y agoHigh recommend reading the article. Seems like the CDTFA couldn’t balance their books and now is making the city of Cupertino the major loser rather than Apple. In fairness, routing all CA tax through Cupertino didn’t make much sense in the first place.
- jeffbee 3y agoJust go clarify matters for anyone not living in California: Cupertino is not a charter city, enjoys zero deference from the state, has no right to home rule or any of that nonsense. General law cities are strictly administrative subdivisions of the state and exist to execute and promulgate state policies.
- function_seven 3y agoThanks. I never knew about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General-law_municipality#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General-law_municipality#Calif...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kansface 3y agoMaybe its time to make a charter real quick to keep future revenue. I wonder what the process is.
- plussed_reader 3y agoThe nimbys and 'fiscal libertarians' of the area will take great umbrage to you messing with their bottom line; but there is a glimmer of hope with the sb-35 inroads forcing new higher density housing into the area. I like to mental model the south bay area as chicago pre-greatfire/civil war era; it has expanded all it can on land and it must go under to be built up. We're just watching an economic wild fire in slow motion as it immolates 'the way things are', clearing out the old growth for a new meadow to take route.
- astrange 3y agoWould be better if they were annexed by Sunnyvale. Cupertino voters regularly elect people who think Apple employees shouldn't be allowed to live in the city because they'll hire prostitutes and molest local high school students. (Direct quote.)
- rayiner 3y ago> Since 1998, Apple has declared all of its online sales made in California as having taken place in Cupertino. How did anyone think that was okay, and how did it escape notice for 25 years.
- madrox 3y agoThis came from an era when online purchases did not have sales tax
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- FireBeyond 3y agoAnd yet even Amazon complied and now computes tax based on where the buyer is. As does B&H. Years ago (approaching, if not a decade ago).
- lotsofpulp 3y agoSo does Apple, for even longer than Amazon and B&H since Apple has had physical locations in most states for longer than Amazon and B&H, so they always had to remit sales tax to most states.
- FireBeyond 3y agoUh, no? This entire article is how Apple declares all online sales to have happened in Cupertino, regardless of where the buyer is. Amazon doesn't do that, they say the sale happened where the buyer is. B&H does the same. Apple says "it happened in Cupertino, so we'll pay taxes related to Cupertino and our special tax agreement with Cupertino".
- lotsofpulp 3y agoThat is a California specific situation that applies to California taxes and California’s local governments’ portion of those taxes. If you are in any state, Apple still collects and remits sales tax for that state. Amazon/B&H example was that they were not collecting sales taxes in states they did not have a physical presence in, until the South Dakota Wayfair ruling.
- yieldcrv 3y agothese kinds of things inspire me as a version of “land of opportunity” that are different and more useful than what I was taught What I think is disingenuous is that Cupertino surely raises property taxes right? Why would they be worried about a reduction in sales tax, i haven’t checked their finances though
- mnd999 3y agoIn this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. Unless you’re a corporation. Special tax treatment for anyone should be illegal. Pay your fucking taxes. Edit: angrier
- BiteCode_dev 3y agoAlso they don't have to die.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago> When someone shares an opinion online that seems disconnected from the complexities or the practical realities of the situation, and it appears that their viewpoint or proposed solution is not grounded in the way systems currently operate, you might describe their commentary as: _____ You fill in the blanks.
- shikshake 3y agoEither contribute to the discussion or don’t speak. HN isn’t the place to recite riddles from your high horse.
- yieldcrv 3y agoI found it substantive because it sparks introspection
- boeingUH60 3y agoBS.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago> Pay your fucking taxes. Not just that, but pay a fair amount of taxes! I'm not saying that apple needs to pay more taxes because they're big, I'd be happy if they paid the same amount (in percent, not total sum) as a small local mom-and-pop companies pay.
- loceng 3y ago
- black_13 3y ago[dead]
- jfim 3y agoI wonder if Mountain View does the same thing with the Goog's online/ad sales.
- Algurnon 3y agoAliExpress collects the 10% calif local and state sales on my international order. What are the odds that extra 10% gets forwarded to Sacramento?
- gamblor956 3y ago100%. The sales and use tax returns of companies that import more than a few thousand $ in goods into CA in a year are audited at least every other year, and they are quick to levy penalties. For dropshipping companies with a significant amount of sales tax collected from CA customers, the sales tax they collected from you probably got to Sacramento before your item was even loaded onto a ship headed east.
- Algurnon 3y agoAliexpress is not a cali company importing... Its a small foreign merchant in an opaque country exporting into Calif. All Calif sees is a parcel delivered. I don't see how Calif has any jurisdictional powers to assert audits on a small chinese merchant in china.
- gamblor956 3y agoAli Express has an office in San Mateo, California... Ali Express is one of the largest merchantile organizations in the world by shipment volume, and one of the largest importers of record in the U.S. U.S. Customs provides customs records to local taxing authorities, who have always had the power of taxation over imported goods. (Import taxes aka customs duties have been around since at least Ancient Mesopotamia, circa BC 1900.)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]