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Some people - mostly anti-woke Americans - think that there is reduced freedom of speech in Germany because you can go to jail for denying the holocaust or Nazi

Some people - mostly anti-woke Americans - think that there is reduced freedom of speech in Germany because you can go to jail for denying the holocaust or Nazi slogans. Not sure if OP meant that but I saw that opinion around.

logicchains 3y ago
You can also go to jail in Germany now for expressing support for Hamas.
- vasdae 3y ago
  Basically for having the wrong political opinion. If that's not a limitation on the freedom of speech... Germany probably has the least free speech of the developed world.
  - Lacerda69 3y ago
    If you actually believe the holocaust was an invention and spread this belief in public you should be jailed IMO. Not sure what other "opinions" you are alluding to. Who has been jailed for that in Germany? Genuinely curious.
    - vasdae 3y ago
      > If you actually believe the holocaust was an invention and spread this belief in public you should be jailed IMO. I mean, as long as you are aware of how autoritarian this is...
      - Lacerda69 3y ago
        You always need a balance between authoritarianism and anarchy, in every society. I think some laws in the US are also super authoritarian, just in a different direction. Does the US have a 10 times higher rate of incarceration per capita as Germany? Yes it does. I think that's more authoritarian than making holocaust denial illegal. As long as you are fine with that ok I guess...
- sofixa 3y ago
  Expressing support for Hamas is (usually) antisemitism and is indeed not encouraged in Germany. The fact that there have been multiple manifestations attended by thousands to tens of thousands in support of Palestine, sometimes going up to supporting Hamas and genocide seems to indicate that it's not blanket illegal, and there is actually a good reason why it should be illegal to support Hamas. After all, they're literally a terrorist group. For the record, supporting Palestine's right to exist doesn't mean support of Hamas, and many Germans are totally able to express one without the other.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    The relevant factor is not whether these demonstrators support Palestine's right to exist (Which everyone does, no one in Israel wants a one-state solution) but whether they support or acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > Which everyone does, no one in Israel wants a one-state solution That is absolutely bullshit. Netanyahu showed maps with Gaza included in Israel even at the UN, and his coalition including many far right fringe figures actively and publicly advocate for the genocide / ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, encourage settlement in the West Bank and even go as far as publicly saying Gaza should be nuked. Many in Israel would be happy if Palestine stopped existing all together. > whether they support Israel's right to exist. That's where I differentiate between supporting Palestine's right to exist, and supporting Hamas which denies Israel's right to exist. Although you're right, one can dislike Hamas for religious or whatever reasons, but still agree with their mission and not support Israel's right to exist. But merely saying Palestine has the right to exist shouldn't elicit a response of "this is antisemitic and denying Israel has a right to exist" which it way too often does. In any case, there are far more people supporting Palestine than Hamas. But sadly, there are people (like the crazies in Essen yesterday) who absolutely do support Hamas and hate everything Jewish and Israeli. They should be restricted severely (if refugees/migrants - expelled immediately; if citizens, arrested for hate speech and sent to mandatory education courses).
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  I live here and I have never heard of that. Do you have a source for this?
fallingknife 3y ago
So they think there is reduced freedom of speech because there is reduced freedom of speech. It's not a matter of opinion.
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  I disagree. You can say anything but deny the holocaust. Denying the holocaust took place is not speech, it's a crime.
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    Your assertion is beyond ridiculous. Any words that come out of your mouth is speech.

logicchains 3y ago

You can also go to jail in Germany now for expressing support for Hamas.

vasdae 3y ago
Basically for having the wrong political opinion. If that's not a limitation on the freedom of speech... Germany probably has the least free speech of the developed world.
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  If you actually believe the holocaust was an invention and spread this belief in public you should be jailed IMO. Not sure what other "opinions" you are alluding to. Who has been jailed for that in Germany? Genuinely curious.
  - vasdae 3y ago
    > If you actually believe the holocaust was an invention and spread this belief in public you should be jailed IMO. I mean, as long as you are aware of how autoritarian this is...
    - Lacerda69 3y ago
      You always need a balance between authoritarianism and anarchy, in every society. I think some laws in the US are also super authoritarian, just in a different direction. Does the US have a 10 times higher rate of incarceration per capita as Germany? Yes it does. I think that's more authoritarian than making holocaust denial illegal. As long as you are fine with that ok I guess...
sofixa 3y ago
Expressing support for Hamas is (usually) antisemitism and is indeed not encouraged in Germany. The fact that there have been multiple manifestations attended by thousands to tens of thousands in support of Palestine, sometimes going up to supporting Hamas and genocide seems to indicate that it's not blanket illegal, and there is actually a good reason why it should be illegal to support Hamas. After all, they're literally a terrorist group. For the record, supporting Palestine's right to exist doesn't mean support of Hamas, and many Germans are totally able to express one without the other.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  The relevant factor is not whether these demonstrators support Palestine's right to exist (Which everyone does, no one in Israel wants a one-state solution) but whether they support or acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > Which everyone does, no one in Israel wants a one-state solution That is absolutely bullshit. Netanyahu showed maps with Gaza included in Israel even at the UN, and his coalition including many far right fringe figures actively and publicly advocate for the genocide / ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, encourage settlement in the West Bank and even go as far as publicly saying Gaza should be nuked. Many in Israel would be happy if Palestine stopped existing all together. > whether they support Israel's right to exist. That's where I differentiate between supporting Palestine's right to exist, and supporting Hamas which denies Israel's right to exist. Although you're right, one can dislike Hamas for religious or whatever reasons, but still agree with their mission and not support Israel's right to exist. But merely saying Palestine has the right to exist shouldn't elicit a response of "this is antisemitic and denying Israel has a right to exist" which it way too often does. In any case, there are far more people supporting Palestine than Hamas. But sadly, there are people (like the crazies in Essen yesterday) who absolutely do support Hamas and hate everything Jewish and Israeli. They should be restricted severely (if refugees/migrants - expelled immediately; if citizens, arrested for hate speech and sent to mandatory education courses).
Lacerda69 3y ago
I live here and I have never heard of that. Do you have a source for this?

fallingknife 3y ago

So they think there is reduced freedom of speech because there is reduced freedom of speech. It's not a matter of opinion.

Lacerda69 3y ago
I disagree. You can say anything but deny the holocaust. Denying the holocaust took place is not speech, it's a crime.
- fallingknife 3y ago
  Your assertion is beyond ridiculous. Any words that come out of your mouth is speech.