6 ms·

That's already twice too much for my budget. But since we need to have less cars on the roads, maybe Tesla is just puching in the right direction :-)

by wiz21c 3y ago

world2vec 3y ago
What kind of budget you have? 25k euro is a pretty good price range for a small electric car, maybe you're better suited looking for second-hand cars.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  Electric vehicles will succeed or fail with how they can establish themselves on a second hand market. I would have the budget for such a price, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay it. For official business there are company cars and I drive perhaps 5000 km per year. I still have a car and I need it to visit some more remote people and for convenience. Paid 2.5k for it and I have it since a few years. I do have a mechanic, so repairs are cheap, but you can guess about my expectations for buying the next car. Haven't seen EV with attractive prices yet.
  - mattmanser 3y ago
    Do you mean particular brands? Electric cars in general will be the only option. The big countries in the EU are banning selling new petrol cars in 2035. So they'll definitely succeed, there's no option!
    - lmm 3y ago
      Or people will stop driving. Or those deadlines will get pushed back.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Given how many locations depend on having car available and public transport offerings are a joke even in Europe, I am more going into the deadlines being pushed back scenario. Not everyone is living in Amsterdam, Berlin, London,... city center.
        soco 3y ago
        Here in the Swiss countryside public transport is okay, at least to my tastes (I know I criticize sometimes but only first world problems). So if those other countries need a working model, here we are waving at them...
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Sure, if they also manage to have Swiss income and life quality in first place. I lived there for a couple of years during my CERN days.
  - vasdae 3y ago
    >Electric vehicles will succeed or fail with how they can establish themselves on a second hand market. They will "succeed" because the government will force us to use them. It's us citizens who will succeed or fail to have freedom to move, depending on how wealthy we are ;)
  - jillesvangurp 3y ago
    It will come. The "problem" with EVs is that they retain their value much longer. Which is factored into their second hand value. Second hand ICE cars are cheap because they start having lots of issues when they get older and the risk of them needing some maintenance that exceeds the purchase price gets higher and higher. If you buy a ten year old Nissan Leaf for, it will still be quite usable and be desirable enough that people are willing to pay a lot more than 2.5K for it. And if the time comes, you can put a new battery in it for 4-5K or so and drive it for another decade+. And of course there aren't that many EVs that old around to begin with because the market was relatively new and small ten years ago. Most EVs on the road are probably younger than 3 years or so. They'll be on the road for a long time and might change owner a lot. But it will take some time to trickle down.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  ICE based small cars sell for about 10K less. Second hand electric cars are still few and far between. Here is a Nissan Leaf from 2011 for 5K: https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/nissan/m2041841167-nissan-leaf-base-24-kwh-nl-auto-nap https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/nissan/m2041841167-nissa... There is no mention of remaining battery capacity, only the original is listed. For that kind of money you can fairly easily find a Renault, Skoda or if you're lucky a VW with lower mileage and probably a newer model year.
- dathinab 3y ago
  good price range for a new car, yes But also more then what a good part of the population is willing to afford to pay for a car. Weather hear or in the US a lot of people buy second,third,fourth hand. And that's a problem I think massively underestimated, a least currently electric cars are kinda badly suited for being resold, especially if they come from companies with pretty bad service/walled garden reputation like Tesla.
- yulaow 3y ago
  25k is quite a lot for many average salaried people in Europe, indeed the step bump of price (almost 2x in 10 years) of non-electric cars already put the eu market in a dire position where most people are not able to replace their car anymore and keep using very old cars with very high pollution outputs
  - wiz21c 3y ago
    That's exactly my point. Thanks for putting it down in words :-) A car is not a luxury good: it's something I buy because I have to. I'll go Dacia this time.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  Well, the average salary across the EU is 27K EUR, so 25K is arguably still pretty much, in the grand scheme of things.
yodsanklai 3y ago
It's not expensive. Even budget, non-electric, cars such as ford fiesta cost about 18K nowadays.
- tokamak-teapot 3y ago
  If you look at it that way, yes, it’s not expensive. I would say that the Fiesta is 10k too expensive.
  - yodsanklai 3y ago
    I'm not saying that 18K is cheap for a fiesta. Just that a Tesla costing 40% more than one of the cheapest car available makes it quite a good deal.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    In what world a 18k Fiesta is 10K too expensive if a top of the line trail mountain bike (pedal powered, not e-bike) is 11K?
    - yulaow 3y ago
      The same car model just 10 years ago went for half the price. Same for the fiat Panda (my parents bought it in 2008 for 8k, now the most base model I can find is 19k). In the meantime salaries have not double at all (in some nations they even fell)
    - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
      This is something that has been on my mind for a long while: are cars super cheap or bikes super expensive? Looking at how much material it takes to make and how complex it is, I would expect a car to cost ~100 more than a bike, but in reality it's more like ~10 more
      - lm28469 3y ago
        Regular bikes are super cheap, but if you buy a top of the line, specialised and low quantity bike you're paying a premium of course. Price is never about the material used... an iphone would be $200 if it was the case. Look into economy of scale, how money is made through maintenance/parts/after sale services, &c.

That's already twice too much for my budget. But since we need to have less cars on the roads, maybe Tesla is just puching in the right direction :-)

by wiz21c 3y ago

That's already twice too much for my budget. But since we need to have less cars on the roads, maybe Tesla is just puching in the right direction :-)

world2vec 3y ago

What kind of budget you have? 25k euro is a pretty good price range for a small electric car, maybe you're better suited looking for second-hand cars.

raxxorraxor 3y ago
Electric vehicles will succeed or fail with how they can establish themselves on a second hand market. I would have the budget for such a price, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay it. For official business there are company cars and I drive perhaps 5000 km per year. I still have a car and I need it to visit some more remote people and for convenience. Paid 2.5k for it and I have it since a few years. I do have a mechanic, so repairs are cheap, but you can guess about my expectations for buying the next car. Haven't seen EV with attractive prices yet.
- mattmanser 3y ago
  Do you mean particular brands? Electric cars in general will be the only option. The big countries in the EU are banning selling new petrol cars in 2035. So they'll definitely succeed, there's no option!
  - lmm 3y ago
    Or people will stop driving. Or those deadlines will get pushed back.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Given how many locations depend on having car available and public transport offerings are a joke even in Europe, I am more going into the deadlines being pushed back scenario. Not everyone is living in Amsterdam, Berlin, London,... city center.
      - soco 3y ago
        Here in the Swiss countryside public transport is okay, at least to my tastes (I know I criticize sometimes but only first world problems). So if those other countries need a working model, here we are waving at them...
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Sure, if they also manage to have Swiss income and life quality in first place. I lived there for a couple of years during my CERN days.
- vasdae 3y ago
  >Electric vehicles will succeed or fail with how they can establish themselves on a second hand market. They will "succeed" because the government will force us to use them. It's us citizens who will succeed or fail to have freedom to move, depending on how wealthy we are ;)
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  It will come. The "problem" with EVs is that they retain their value much longer. Which is factored into their second hand value. Second hand ICE cars are cheap because they start having lots of issues when they get older and the risk of them needing some maintenance that exceeds the purchase price gets higher and higher. If you buy a ten year old Nissan Leaf for, it will still be quite usable and be desirable enough that people are willing to pay a lot more than 2.5K for it. And if the time comes, you can put a new battery in it for 4-5K or so and drive it for another decade+. And of course there aren't that many EVs that old around to begin with because the market was relatively new and small ten years ago. Most EVs on the road are probably younger than 3 years or so. They'll be on the road for a long time and might change owner a lot. But it will take some time to trickle down.
jacquesm 3y ago
ICE based small cars sell for about 10K less. Second hand electric cars are still few and far between. Here is a Nissan Leaf from 2011 for 5K: https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/nissan/m2041841167-nissan-leaf-base-24-kwh-nl-auto-nap https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/nissan/m2041841167-nissa... There is no mention of remaining battery capacity, only the original is listed. For that kind of money you can fairly easily find a Renault, Skoda or if you're lucky a VW with lower mileage and probably a newer model year.
dathinab 3y ago
good price range for a new car, yes But also more then what a good part of the population is willing to afford to pay for a car. Weather hear or in the US a lot of people buy second,third,fourth hand. And that's a problem I think massively underestimated, a least currently electric cars are kinda badly suited for being resold, especially if they come from companies with pretty bad service/walled garden reputation like Tesla.
yulaow 3y ago
25k is quite a lot for many average salaried people in Europe, indeed the step bump of price (almost 2x in 10 years) of non-electric cars already put the eu market in a dire position where most people are not able to replace their car anymore and keep using very old cars with very high pollution outputs
- wiz21c 3y ago
  That's exactly my point. Thanks for putting it down in words :-) A car is not a luxury good: it's something I buy because I have to. I'll go Dacia this time.
ricardobayes 3y ago
Well, the average salary across the EU is 27K EUR, so 25K is arguably still pretty much, in the grand scheme of things.

yodsanklai 3y ago

It's not expensive. Even budget, non-electric, cars such as ford fiesta cost about 18K nowadays.

tokamak-teapot 3y ago
If you look at it that way, yes, it’s not expensive. I would say that the Fiesta is 10k too expensive.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  I'm not saying that 18K is cheap for a fiesta. Just that a Tesla costing 40% more than one of the cheapest car available makes it quite a good deal.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  In what world a 18k Fiesta is 10K too expensive if a top of the line trail mountain bike (pedal powered, not e-bike) is 11K?
  - yulaow 3y ago
    The same car model just 10 years ago went for half the price. Same for the fiat Panda (my parents bought it in 2008 for 8k, now the most base model I can find is 19k). In the meantime salaries have not double at all (in some nations they even fell)
  - CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
    This is something that has been on my mind for a long while: are cars super cheap or bikes super expensive? Looking at how much material it takes to make and how complex it is, I would expect a car to cost ~100 more than a bike, but in reality it's more like ~10 more
    - lm28469 3y ago
      Regular bikes are super cheap, but if you buy a top of the line, specialised and low quantity bike you're paying a premium of course. Price is never about the material used... an iphone would be $200 if it was the case. Look into economy of scale, how money is made through maintenance/parts/after sale services, &c.