8 ms·

On letting go of spite

99 points by vegancap 3y ago

langsoul-com 3y ago
Classic schooling. Never fails to fuck people up on numerous unintended ways a decade later. Though, in terms of the title, letting go of spite, i don't see the author really talk about that. Beyond just, yeah this happened to me, and now I want to try to let go of spite.
- DrawTR 3y ago
  > i don't see the author really talk about that. The last paragraph touches on that: > I’m now writing this in an attempt to start letting go of that spite. Just like I was during school, those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do. Instead, I thank them for trying, I thank them for their patience. I know I derailed nearly every class and I know that many of you at least recognised the potential, and tried to get me to see what I was capable of. But the truth is, the format of traditional schooling just didn’t work for me. And I now know why. But, I found my path eventually, and continue to do so.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  > Classic schooling. Never fails to fuck people up on numerous unintended ways a decade later. I would redefine that as 'Life'. The only way to produce "perfect" human beings is to put them into a sterile environment where you literally control everything about it and then you have the issue of homogeneity. To live is to risk, for many "classic schooling" is very beneficial, for many it is not. I'm not advocating doing absolutely nothing because nothing is unknowable, I'm just pointing out that there is no such thing as a perfect solution.
kashunstva 3y ago
There’s a point where spite serves and a point where it hinders. In freshman year of high school, a PE coach said to my face “You’re never going to amount to anything.” Because I was a scrawny kid with no interest in sport. The residual spite served me well as a motivating influence in the rest of my educational life: through university, graduate school, postdoctoral work. But at some point saying “I had the last laugh,” one last time and then forgiving is the right thing to do.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Forgiveness isn't necessary or even warranted though: forgetting conversely, is. This is what I think TV tends to mess up: recurring characters are good for story or known quantities for production, but in real life? They don't need to exist at all.
  - sublinear 3y ago
    Closure is necessary to forget and that's why someone might not be able to. I agree that forgiveness isn't always the best kind of closure. The magic of forgetting is that it's painless and automatic.
    - Aeglaecia 3y ago
      it takes effort to hold on , letting go does not require effort
      - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
        letting go would require a lot of effort for some people, especially if other people keep coming along and hitting on the same damn spot.
        Aeglaecia 3y ago
        not making a decision is the same as making a decision, yes difficulty varies on circumstance..
  - tgv 3y ago
    I think we should forgive, but not forget. There's no need to forgive everything, though.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Sometimes, as with tough love, relations of hurt are not what they seem to be. I had one canny and amazing teacher, humane and funny to the core. It took me 5 years to grow from hating her to loving her. On the last day, when I graduated her class with A+ and a special prize she finally said to me; """ I always marked your work unfairly, very poorly. I know kids like you, and wanted to make you say "I'll show that fucking bitch" """ Occasionally, sparingly, I use that same device in my teaching. It's hard to pull off and you have to watch very carefully where it lands. You need to watch for Pvt. Gomer Pyle's who can't process it, and give them 100% heart. But for many, being the bitch is the way to their hearts, because it gives them something to triumph over. A sorry kind of teacher is one who really cares too much what people think about them.
grepLeigh 3y ago
There's a meditation I've found healing for memories like this. >> In one instance, a teacher uttered the words ‘Ewan’s naturally bad at maths’. I was 6 The exercise goes something like: Summon up a painful memory, like feeling underestimated by a teacher or ashamed of yourself. Let the memory (and feelings) get as strong as they need to be, without trying to suppress or judge how you feel. Then, imagine stepping into the memory and giving a younger version of yourself exactly what you needed. This is especially healing if there were adults in your early life may have failed to provide what you needed, and you're still holding on to pain/blame/spite. Here's the guided meditation where I learned this technique: https://timdesmond.net/self-compassion-skills-workbook/ https://timdesmond.net/self-compassion-skills-workbook/
- vegancap 3y ago
  As the post suggested, this was very much a start of this process, but truth be told I had no idea where or how to start. So thank you for this, this looks really powerful and I can't wait to try it out!
  - grepLeigh 3y ago
    Good on you for spending time/energy on yourself. A lot of things in your post really resonated with me (like diagnosis late in life). Excited that you get to uncover the things you're capable of on your own terms.
- littlelady 3y ago
  This is a really nice playlist, but how are you supposed to use it? Are you "supposed" to go through all 8 meditations in one day? Or just one once per day? I see it's from a book, but would like to try these out before reading it.
  - grepLeigh 3y ago
    There's a workbook that explains how to use the playlist. It's a bit like a choose-your-own adventure game. I originally found the workbook while browsing library ebooks (Libby) but ended up buying a copy to support the author.
sublinear 3y ago
> I’m constantly desperate to prove I’m not an idiot... in some sense it’s not a problem, quite the opposite. But in a few important ways, it is a problem. Every victory, every success is not my own. It’s a moment I share with an array of teachers who have likely forgotten I even exist. No victory motivated by spite is ever your own, you share it with those you are trying to prove wrong. Other things mentioned in this blog posts are ADHD and "the format of traditional schooling". None of that inherently causes the spite described. It's more philosophical. Scholasticism is found everywhere from religion to bootcamps to public schools. It lends itself well to institutions. It's about encouraging conformity and "training" people to perform a certain way in a role. The assumptions causing all this pain are oversimplified ones: the teacher is always right, agreeing with the "right" answers means you understand, and that knowing these answers means you're ready for "the real world". I never felt spite towards these institutions because I was told by my parents from a young age that they merely represent collective agreements, not necessarily the truth. There may be plenty of overlap, but the incentives are completely different, so they eventually diverge. Institutions represent society, not the individual. To be happy with this is to just take it for what it is and let your faith lie in yourself and what you learn to appreciate on your own. Indeed most good teachers will also tell you to not take bad grades personally even if you still need to improve. There's a lot to admire about institutions and the results they deliver, but it's madness to pour your heart into them.
- Aeglaecia 3y ago
  I feel bad for the myriad persons "diagnosed" with artificial conditions that would not exist in absentia of the system ... a fake light illuminating an image to identify with and thus increase "productivity" in this unnatural environment ... I choose to hold onto spite as a reminder of what has been taken from the majority , to behave otherwise requires apathy or delusion
  - sublinear 3y ago
    "Madness and Civilization" by Foucault is one of the greats even though it's historically inaccurate. That said we all have multiple roles with no guarantees they won't conflict. How that's resolved by an individual is their identity. Roles are not a product of authority. It's the other way around. Taking on responsibilities is power. It's silly, but even simple household chores can be seen this way. My parents used to point out that their frustration with a dirty floor, beyond just being "my fault", also meant that I had power over their emotions and a demonstration of how we're all at the mercy of each other. Heavy stuff for an 8 year old. Sure expectations are the other side of it, but that's where bargaining comes in. They were fair to never expect me to be perfect, just good enough.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
My mother knew I was “on the spectrum,” when I was a teen, but I never figured it out, until I was in my fifties. I just assumed I was “weird” (because I am), and “good at programming” (because I am). I’ve been taking IQ tests, all my life. I’m smarter than the average bear, but can also report that there’s a lot more to life than brainpower. It’s a long, sad story (bring a hanky), but I never got any formal sheepskins. In fact, I have a GED, as I dropped out of high school. Used to bother me, especially when looking up people’s noses, but it never actually had much negative impact on my career. In fact, if I think about it, it’s probably the opposite. No one has ever “cut me slack,” or “taken my word,” because I had the right school tie. My aspect didn’t help, either. I was often quite blunt, and had to learn the art of verbal communication (which I overlearned, as you can’t shut me up, these days). I’ve had to prove myself, every step of the way. This meant that I rapidly learned to deliver, even if it came with a dose of “screw you; top this.” So I’ve been delivering finished product (often under active attempts to interfere), my entire adult life. That counts for something. Sort of like a dork version of Johnny Cash’s “A Boy Named Sue” song. “That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.” (or leaves you weak and exhausted). But that also means that anger informed my approach to life, for many years. I had to learn to let go of that, in my late twenties. Difficult job, but I had good support, and good tools (part of the long story). I’ve found that anger (“spite,” as the author calls it) was very good fuel, but also highly corrosive to its container (that’s me). I really needed to put it aside. In the aggregate, I’m glad everything went the way it did, as it got me where I am, but the journey has been “interesting.” I wish the author well; however, I’ve learned that life is not a series of milestones, but a continuum, with serendipity playing a huge role. Also, my ability to relate to others has been incredibly important, and did not come naturally. I had to learn to get along. Trying to force the direction of my life actually interfered with that. But, as always, WFM. YMMV.
- pseudonamed 3y ago
  I strongly relate. Only for me it wasn't anger but pain, a different perspective of the same thing I imagine. I would always follow my anger and found that it always lead to existence.
gizmo 3y ago
> I’m now writing this in an attempt to start letting go of that spite. Just like I was during school, those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do. Instead, I thank them for trying, I thank them for their patience. I know I derailed nearly every class and I know that many of you at least recognised the potential, and tried to get me to see what I was capable of. This reads like: now that I'm old and very wise I finally understand that those who hurt me as a child can't be blamed because they tried their best. But I don't think absolution makes sense here. The 6 year old isn't at fault for being who he is. It's the responsibility of adults to figure out why a kid isn't thriving. Trying to force a round peg into a square hole year after year after year is not reasonable, and cannot possibly be considered "trying their best". Should teachers continue to bully kids who can't sit still? Is the status quo for ADHD kids acceptable? Of course not. ADHD kids deserve a happy childhood, too. It's totally fine to make peace with the past and to let go of anger without trying to justify what happened.
- tgv 3y ago
  > It's the responsibility of adults to figure out why a kid isn't thriving. Isn't that putting the bar too high? > Should teachers continue to bully kids who can't sit still? There's no mention of that in the article. The author also makes assumptions that look rather fanciful. There's no reason to take his explanations/rationalizations at face value.
  - gizmo 3y ago
    If the adults aren't responsible, then who is??
    - pseudonamed 3y ago
      They too were children once.
    - MrJohz 3y ago
      It comes down a lot to your definition of responsibility. Yes, those teachers were adults who could make their own decisions. But sometimes you can make all the decisions that you see as being the best and most informed at the time you make them, and still produce poor outcomes, simply because you don't have the resources or knowledge or ability to do better. So should we judge the teachers based on how they tried to make decisions in the moment when the author was young, or should we judge them based on the results of their decisions with the knowledge that we have now? I find that quite a hard question to answer definitively, but I do know that I tend to use the former rule for myself and the latter rule for others, which certainly seems quite unfair to me.
pseudonamed 3y ago
I'm currently in the process of a late 30's ADHD diagnosis. As is becoming increasingly unsurprising, I'm unsurprised at how relatable the article and all the comments here are. I'm writing this just to say, it's ok. I'd like to be able to tell myself that and believe it but I can't yet. It's hard to even express how painful ADHD is. I have had first hand experience of multiple major traumas as a child and none of them come even close to a life of undiagnosed ADHD.
- altdataseller 3y ago
  Sincere question but what’s the hardest part of having ADHD?
  - anonymoushn 3y ago
    failing at everything you care about all the time, also filing documents or whatever
  - pseudonamed 3y ago
    For me, it's knowing what you want to do but being unable to do it. That's expressed quite poorly, I know, let me try harder. "...knowing what you want to do..." is not at any point in time or in any specific dimension. It is literally what I write and can be as simple as "pick up the leaf off the floor", it doesn't need to be valuable, expected, novel, easy, hard, etc. "...being unable to do it..." is not unable to reify an ideal or perfection. It's being unable to consistently "do", to however you define "do", to whatever you set out to do no matter how small, simple, easy you make it. What made that hard for me was before the diagnosis I didn't have enough language to make sense of that in a way that wasn't damaging to some aspect of myself. And in me that created an early bias to the shutting down of expression. A retreat into my mind, as the stuff of minds is not as limited by the doing. The diagnosis is a shortcut, a way to tap into the work others have done. And that work is so easily applicable because what I thought was a problem unique to me is shared so strikingly by other people in the ADHD/autism cohort. It took me a long time to find that out. And just as a minor counterpoint to some comments, the pressure never came from my parents or teachers or... (well it did come from needing to exist materially in the world) but from myself. So while it may be convenient to think that the problem with ADHD is the 'system', it's not required. It's not required because in the mind, the system and the I are the same thing and cannot be separated.
langsoul-com 3y ago
But what if you don't want to let go of spite? What if spite, anger is a shield that protects you from seeing yourself properly? All this conformity school, parents, fucked me up. I have this deep desire to appear normal. All my life, I've been trying to be normal, appear normal, learn what's required for normalness. Without spite, without anger of everything that fucked me up, of what it made me become means I cannot blame everyone for my problems any more. And I cannot deal with that. From time to time, when I look myself in the mirror, the reflection asks "Does this look normal to you?" and have some sort of mini mental breakdown. Spite and anger is my shield, a deferred shield, I know. But really, I cannot handle myself in the mirror right now.
- hn92726819 3y ago
  > What if spite, anger is a shield that protects you from seeing yourself properly? If you're using spite as a shield for something like this, then it makes sense that it would be a scary idea to get rid of that defense mechanism. If that truly helps you and doesn't hurt you, I imagine that might be okay. But then you continue with the fact that you can't look at yourself in the mirror. That shows that this coping strategy may not be working as well as you think it is. Your mental baggage of your past might be doing more than just giving you anger/hatred toward those around you -- your inner hate might also be fueled by it. I would suggest you seriously consider talking with a therapist about this. A good one will help you acknowledge your past and hopefully move past your dislike of yourself, but also won't say what happened to you is okay or make you forgive anyone. > means I cannot blame everyone for my problems any more I once read that forgiveness is not a goal, but a possible side effect of healing. This really helped me put things in perspective. Basically, if you aren't at peace with yourself, blaming other people only goes so far. Once you have found stronger inner peace, forgiveness comes for free (or it doesn't, which is also okay).
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  more than that, what if you don't dislike who you are? I grew up very poor, to the point of living in tents on the side of the river, living without electricity or water, etc (this is in the US). fast forward 25+ years and I make more money than I could have ever fathomed. And yet, I still feel more comfortable living like I'm poor because the money is a security blanket. If left to my own devices could easily live off of 30k today, the only thing that stops me is my gf of 10+ years doesn't want to live like that. We've made compromises, one of them is we don't spend money willy-nilly without a strong justification. You'll hear people talk about the tendencies of poor people who come into money and how they couldn't let it go, as if it's a negative thing. But you know what? fuck that, it's my strength. I can't speak to your specific situation, I'm just commenting that I agree things that poor situations can sometimes give you strength and if not strength then maybe you as a person like who you are, don't feel the need to change because someone tells you to.
sgu999 3y ago
> those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do Some people are simply arseholes or incompetent and others have unresolved issues. Compassion and empathy are important, but I don't think we should project good intentions onto everyone. I prefer to assume that a teacher who says verbatim that a 6yo is "naturally bad at *" is a bad professional, and an arsehole.
moribvndvs 3y ago
A lot of this hits home very hard for me. I’d extend it beyond school to my anger with religion and how the world generally functions. I found spite and anger started in the latter half of high school, where I found myself struggling when previously education had been a breeze. This, of course, coincides with the point where your education starts to impress conformity and a particular way of doing things, as well as increasing reliance on fixtures that I do not thrive in (such as standardized testing). I didn’t know I had ADHD until nearly middle age. However, I didn’t notice because I didn’t have the language to even understand it let alone tools to manage it, and it “didn’t matter” because I was able to turn it into relative success. On the other hand, the cost of this has been high. My self-esteem is very poor. This can result in unhealthy, erratic, and self-destructive behaviors to compensate or mask my insecurities from myself or others. I sometimes let myself get taken advantage of and don’t advocate for myself because I think I deserve it and I fear failure. I work below my capabilities and overestimate risk for the same reasons. I often mistake self-deprecation as humility. I set very high standards for myself which are sometimes impossible to achieve, and I treat myself brutally when I don’t, creating a terrible feedback loop which results in burn out, anxiety and panic attacks, apathy, and reclusion. I also feel pathologically compelled to prove that I’m intelligent and capable, which can be annoying and off-putting to friends and coworkers. I have compulsions to take on more than I can handle, which naturally results in falling short and ironically disappointing people and risking devaluation. I try to control things because I’m afraid if things are done a way that I don’t understand, I’ll fail. It’s fucking exhausting, and it sucks. I don’t feel sorry for myself, but I’m tired of feeling like worthless shit and letting people (and myself) walk on me. I feel like I have untold depths of potential I’m just wasting, but I don’t know how to exploit them. I don’t want to coddle myself, but I wish I could just love and forgive myself in a healthy way and not feel shame all the time. I wish I would stop yelling at myself in my own head the entire time I’m awake. The worse part is that all this shame, fear, depression, and anxiety colors your worldview and impacts how you treat others. I’m not wretched to other people, in fact I honestly believe my friends and coworkers find me kind, generous, respectful, and supportive. I try to be nice to others and give them the benefit of the doubt. But I sometimes demand too much, treat people paternally, and I focus on negatives. It pains me to admit but I’m not always honest (with them or myself) and I’m not always reliable, qualities that I cherish in others. When I forget there’s a real person on the other side, all that unrelenting judgement and poor self esteem can result in pettiness and trollish behavior. I’m still trying to figure out what to do about all of this. My partner has been a great help. Part of the process is what you saw happen here: a straight forward inventory of your feelings and being honest with yourself. Then, sometimes with the help of others, you can reevaluate the severity and sincerity of a perceived problem. Discard those things that don’t pass muster, and focus on the rest. From there you start by just forgiving yourself, committing to not repeating those mistakes using quantifiable measures, and building healthy new behaviors around positive results. Be honest about what you can do, whether you _want_ to do it, and hold yourself accountable. And if you fuck it up again on the way, just recalibrate and try again, no fury or wrath is going to make it better. Celebrate appropriately when you do something right because fear of hating yourself is not a good motivator. Mindfulness seems like such a weak, simplistic, and hand-wavy solution but it’s worked better than any punishment I’ve metted out on myself in the past. Sorry this was so long, thanks for your time if you got this far.
n4r9 3y ago
I found this really interesting. I excelled academically and was a teacher/lecturer's pet. Yet I have the same fear of failure and looking like an idiot. The root cause is different - I fear failure because I didn't fail often enough growing up and never learnt to process it - but the consequence is virtually identical. The only real difference is that I don't feel spite. I am prone to arrogance though. It seems like there's a sweet spot of failing some proportion of the time, which leads to humble confidence in later life.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Thesis: ADHD is caused by low-quality educational systems (generally characterized by overcrowded classrooms, boringly repetitive rote learning, inattentive underpaid teachers, etc.) - it's not a result of genetics. This thesis is supported by these facts: (1) there's no solid objective diagnostic test for ADHD at the biochemical level, and (2) there's no solid genetic determinant of who and who won't come down with ADHD. This doesn't mean ADHD isn't real, it's just much more likely to be a symptom of societal failure to provide quality education for children than 'an inherent defect'.
mortallywounded 3y ago
When I was young, I was categorized as "learning disabled". I wasn't allowed to take a second language in middle school or high school. I took "special" classes that were dumbed down for kids like me. I had a lot of resentment and spite-- that's for sure. I was accepted to college, no doubt with the help of my special categorization. When I began my studies I made it a point to take the hardest second language I could (Japanese at the time) and study abroad in Japan. I also made it a point to get a master degree in engineering, and then built a million dollar company on my own. So fuck them and their categories.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
donaldjoan36 3y ago
[dead]

99 points by vegancap 3y ago

Classic schooling. Never fails to fuck people up on numerous unintended ways a decade later. Though, in terms of the title, letting go of spite, i don't see the author really talk about that. Beyond just, yeah this happened to me, and now I want to try to let go of spite.

DrawTR 3y ago
> i don't see the author really talk about that. The last paragraph touches on that: > I’m now writing this in an attempt to start letting go of that spite. Just like I was during school, those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do. Instead, I thank them for trying, I thank them for their patience. I know I derailed nearly every class and I know that many of you at least recognised the potential, and tried to get me to see what I was capable of. But the truth is, the format of traditional schooling just didn’t work for me. And I now know why. But, I found my path eventually, and continue to do so.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
> Classic schooling. Never fails to fuck people up on numerous unintended ways a decade later. I would redefine that as 'Life'. The only way to produce "perfect" human beings is to put them into a sterile environment where you literally control everything about it and then you have the issue of homogeneity. To live is to risk, for many "classic schooling" is very beneficial, for many it is not. I'm not advocating doing absolutely nothing because nothing is unknowable, I'm just pointing out that there is no such thing as a perfect solution.

kashunstva 3y ago

There’s a point where spite serves and a point where it hinders. In freshman year of high school, a PE coach said to my face “You’re never going to amount to anything.” Because I was a scrawny kid with no interest in sport. The residual spite served me well as a motivating influence in the rest of my educational life: through university, graduate school, postdoctoral work. But at some point saying “I had the last laugh,” one last time and then forgiving is the right thing to do.

XorNot 3y ago
Forgiveness isn't necessary or even warranted though: forgetting conversely, is. This is what I think TV tends to mess up: recurring characters are good for story or known quantities for production, but in real life? They don't need to exist at all.
- sublinear 3y ago
  Closure is necessary to forget and that's why someone might not be able to. I agree that forgiveness isn't always the best kind of closure. The magic of forgetting is that it's painless and automatic.
  - Aeglaecia 3y ago
    it takes effort to hold on , letting go does not require effort
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      letting go would require a lot of effort for some people, especially if other people keep coming along and hitting on the same damn spot.
      - Aeglaecia 3y ago
        not making a decision is the same as making a decision, yes difficulty varies on circumstance..
- tgv 3y ago
  I think we should forgive, but not forget. There's no need to forgive everything, though.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Sometimes, as with tough love, relations of hurt are not what they seem to be. I had one canny and amazing teacher, humane and funny to the core. It took me 5 years to grow from hating her to loving her. On the last day, when I graduated her class with A+ and a special prize she finally said to me; """ I always marked your work unfairly, very poorly. I know kids like you, and wanted to make you say "I'll show that fucking bitch" """ Occasionally, sparingly, I use that same device in my teaching. It's hard to pull off and you have to watch very carefully where it lands. You need to watch for Pvt. Gomer Pyle's who can't process it, and give them 100% heart. But for many, being the bitch is the way to their hearts, because it gives them something to triumph over. A sorry kind of teacher is one who really cares too much what people think about them.

grepLeigh 3y ago

There's a meditation I've found healing for memories like this. >> In one instance, a teacher uttered the words ‘Ewan’s naturally bad at maths’. I was 6 The exercise goes something like: Summon up a painful memory, like feeling underestimated by a teacher or ashamed of yourself. Let the memory (and feelings) get as strong as they need to be, without trying to suppress or judge how you feel. Then, imagine stepping into the memory and giving a younger version of yourself exactly what you needed. This is especially healing if there were adults in your early life may have failed to provide what you needed, and you're still holding on to pain/blame/spite. Here's the guided meditation where I learned this technique: https://timdesmond.net/self-compassion-skills-workbook/ https://timdesmond.net/self-compassion-skills-workbook/

vegancap 3y ago
As the post suggested, this was very much a start of this process, but truth be told I had no idea where or how to start. So thank you for this, this looks really powerful and I can't wait to try it out!
- grepLeigh 3y ago
  Good on you for spending time/energy on yourself. A lot of things in your post really resonated with me (like diagnosis late in life). Excited that you get to uncover the things you're capable of on your own terms.
littlelady 3y ago
This is a really nice playlist, but how are you supposed to use it? Are you "supposed" to go through all 8 meditations in one day? Or just one once per day? I see it's from a book, but would like to try these out before reading it.
- grepLeigh 3y ago
  There's a workbook that explains how to use the playlist. It's a bit like a choose-your-own adventure game. I originally found the workbook while browsing library ebooks (Libby) but ended up buying a copy to support the author.

sublinear 3y ago

> I’m constantly desperate to prove I’m not an idiot... in some sense it’s not a problem, quite the opposite. But in a few important ways, it is a problem. Every victory, every success is not my own. It’s a moment I share with an array of teachers who have likely forgotten I even exist. No victory motivated by spite is ever your own, you share it with those you are trying to prove wrong. Other things mentioned in this blog posts are ADHD and "the format of traditional schooling". None of that inherently causes the spite described. It's more philosophical. Scholasticism is found everywhere from religion to bootcamps to public schools. It lends itself well to institutions. It's about encouraging conformity and "training" people to perform a certain way in a role. The assumptions causing all this pain are oversimplified ones: the teacher is always right, agreeing with the "right" answers means you understand, and that knowing these answers means you're ready for "the real world". I never felt spite towards these institutions because I was told by my parents from a young age that they merely represent collective agreements, not necessarily the truth. There may be plenty of overlap, but the incentives are completely different, so they eventually diverge. Institutions represent society, not the individual. To be happy with this is to just take it for what it is and let your faith lie in yourself and what you learn to appreciate on your own. Indeed most good teachers will also tell you to not take bad grades personally even if you still need to improve. There's a lot to admire about institutions and the results they deliver, but it's madness to pour your heart into them.

Aeglaecia 3y ago
I feel bad for the myriad persons "diagnosed" with artificial conditions that would not exist in absentia of the system ... a fake light illuminating an image to identify with and thus increase "productivity" in this unnatural environment ... I choose to hold onto spite as a reminder of what has been taken from the majority , to behave otherwise requires apathy or delusion
- sublinear 3y ago
  "Madness and Civilization" by Foucault is one of the greats even though it's historically inaccurate. That said we all have multiple roles with no guarantees they won't conflict. How that's resolved by an individual is their identity. Roles are not a product of authority. It's the other way around. Taking on responsibilities is power. It's silly, but even simple household chores can be seen this way. My parents used to point out that their frustration with a dirty floor, beyond just being "my fault", also meant that I had power over their emotions and a demonstration of how we're all at the mercy of each other. Heavy stuff for an 8 year old. Sure expectations are the other side of it, but that's where bargaining comes in. They were fair to never expect me to be perfect, just good enough.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

My mother knew I was “on the spectrum,” when I was a teen, but I never figured it out, until I was in my fifties. I just assumed I was “weird” (because I am), and “good at programming” (because I am). I’ve been taking IQ tests, all my life. I’m smarter than the average bear, but can also report that there’s a lot more to life than brainpower. It’s a long, sad story (bring a hanky), but I never got any formal sheepskins. In fact, I have a GED, as I dropped out of high school. Used to bother me, especially when looking up people’s noses, but it never actually had much negative impact on my career. In fact, if I think about it, it’s probably the opposite. No one has ever “cut me slack,” or “taken my word,” because I had the right school tie. My aspect didn’t help, either. I was often quite blunt, and had to learn the art of verbal communication (which I overlearned, as you can’t shut me up, these days). I’ve had to prove myself, every step of the way. This meant that I rapidly learned to deliver, even if it came with a dose of “screw you; top this.” So I’ve been delivering finished product (often under active attempts to interfere), my entire adult life. That counts for something. Sort of like a dork version of Johnny Cash’s “A Boy Named Sue” song. “That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.” (or leaves you weak and exhausted). But that also means that anger informed my approach to life, for many years. I had to learn to let go of that, in my late twenties. Difficult job, but I had good support, and good tools (part of the long story). I’ve found that anger (“spite,” as the author calls it) was very good fuel, but also highly corrosive to its container (that’s me). I really needed to put it aside. In the aggregate, I’m glad everything went the way it did, as it got me where I am, but the journey has been “interesting.” I wish the author well; however, I’ve learned that life is not a series of milestones, but a continuum, with serendipity playing a huge role. Also, my ability to relate to others has been incredibly important, and did not come naturally. I had to learn to get along. Trying to force the direction of my life actually interfered with that. But, as always, WFM. YMMV.

pseudonamed 3y ago
I strongly relate. Only for me it wasn't anger but pain, a different perspective of the same thing I imagine. I would always follow my anger and found that it always lead to existence.

gizmo 3y ago

> I’m now writing this in an attempt to start letting go of that spite. Just like I was during school, those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do. Instead, I thank them for trying, I thank them for their patience. I know I derailed nearly every class and I know that many of you at least recognised the potential, and tried to get me to see what I was capable of. This reads like: now that I'm old and very wise I finally understand that those who hurt me as a child can't be blamed because they tried their best. But I don't think absolution makes sense here. The 6 year old isn't at fault for being who he is. It's the responsibility of adults to figure out why a kid isn't thriving. Trying to force a round peg into a square hole year after year after year is not reasonable, and cannot possibly be considered "trying their best". Should teachers continue to bully kids who can't sit still? Is the status quo for ADHD kids acceptable? Of course not. ADHD kids deserve a happy childhood, too. It's totally fine to make peace with the past and to let go of anger without trying to justify what happened.

tgv 3y ago
> It's the responsibility of adults to figure out why a kid isn't thriving. Isn't that putting the bar too high? > Should teachers continue to bully kids who can't sit still? There's no mention of that in the article. The author also makes assumptions that look rather fanciful. There's no reason to take his explanations/rationalizations at face value.
- gizmo 3y ago
  If the adults aren't responsible, then who is??
  - pseudonamed 3y ago
    They too were children once.
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    It comes down a lot to your definition of responsibility. Yes, those teachers were adults who could make their own decisions. But sometimes you can make all the decisions that you see as being the best and most informed at the time you make them, and still produce poor outcomes, simply because you don't have the resources or knowledge or ability to do better. So should we judge the teachers based on how they tried to make decisions in the moment when the author was young, or should we judge them based on the results of their decisions with the knowledge that we have now? I find that quite a hard question to answer definitively, but I do know that I tend to use the former rule for myself and the latter rule for others, which certainly seems quite unfair to me.

pseudonamed 3y ago

I'm currently in the process of a late 30's ADHD diagnosis. As is becoming increasingly unsurprising, I'm unsurprised at how relatable the article and all the comments here are. I'm writing this just to say, it's ok. I'd like to be able to tell myself that and believe it but I can't yet. It's hard to even express how painful ADHD is. I have had first hand experience of multiple major traumas as a child and none of them come even close to a life of undiagnosed ADHD.

altdataseller 3y ago
Sincere question but what’s the hardest part of having ADHD?
- anonymoushn 3y ago
  failing at everything you care about all the time, also filing documents or whatever
- pseudonamed 3y ago
  For me, it's knowing what you want to do but being unable to do it. That's expressed quite poorly, I know, let me try harder. "...knowing what you want to do..." is not at any point in time or in any specific dimension. It is literally what I write and can be as simple as "pick up the leaf off the floor", it doesn't need to be valuable, expected, novel, easy, hard, etc. "...being unable to do it..." is not unable to reify an ideal or perfection. It's being unable to consistently "do", to however you define "do", to whatever you set out to do no matter how small, simple, easy you make it. What made that hard for me was before the diagnosis I didn't have enough language to make sense of that in a way that wasn't damaging to some aspect of myself. And in me that created an early bias to the shutting down of expression. A retreat into my mind, as the stuff of minds is not as limited by the doing. The diagnosis is a shortcut, a way to tap into the work others have done. And that work is so easily applicable because what I thought was a problem unique to me is shared so strikingly by other people in the ADHD/autism cohort. It took me a long time to find that out. And just as a minor counterpoint to some comments, the pressure never came from my parents or teachers or... (well it did come from needing to exist materially in the world) but from myself. So while it may be convenient to think that the problem with ADHD is the 'system', it's not required. It's not required because in the mind, the system and the I are the same thing and cannot be separated.

langsoul-com 3y ago

But what if you don't want to let go of spite? What if spite, anger is a shield that protects you from seeing yourself properly? All this conformity school, parents, fucked me up. I have this deep desire to appear normal. All my life, I've been trying to be normal, appear normal, learn what's required for normalness. Without spite, without anger of everything that fucked me up, of what it made me become means I cannot blame everyone for my problems any more. And I cannot deal with that. From time to time, when I look myself in the mirror, the reflection asks "Does this look normal to you?" and have some sort of mini mental breakdown. Spite and anger is my shield, a deferred shield, I know. But really, I cannot handle myself in the mirror right now.

hn92726819 3y ago
> What if spite, anger is a shield that protects you from seeing yourself properly? If you're using spite as a shield for something like this, then it makes sense that it would be a scary idea to get rid of that defense mechanism. If that truly helps you and doesn't hurt you, I imagine that might be okay. But then you continue with the fact that you can't look at yourself in the mirror. That shows that this coping strategy may not be working as well as you think it is. Your mental baggage of your past might be doing more than just giving you anger/hatred toward those around you -- your inner hate might also be fueled by it. I would suggest you seriously consider talking with a therapist about this. A good one will help you acknowledge your past and hopefully move past your dislike of yourself, but also won't say what happened to you is okay or make you forgive anyone. > means I cannot blame everyone for my problems any more I once read that forgiveness is not a goal, but a possible side effect of healing. This really helped me put things in perspective. Basically, if you aren't at peace with yourself, blaming other people only goes so far. Once you have found stronger inner peace, forgiveness comes for free (or it doesn't, which is also okay).
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
more than that, what if you don't dislike who you are? I grew up very poor, to the point of living in tents on the side of the river, living without electricity or water, etc (this is in the US). fast forward 25+ years and I make more money than I could have ever fathomed. And yet, I still feel more comfortable living like I'm poor because the money is a security blanket. If left to my own devices could easily live off of 30k today, the only thing that stops me is my gf of 10+ years doesn't want to live like that. We've made compromises, one of them is we don't spend money willy-nilly without a strong justification. You'll hear people talk about the tendencies of poor people who come into money and how they couldn't let it go, as if it's a negative thing. But you know what? fuck that, it's my strength. I can't speak to your specific situation, I'm just commenting that I agree things that poor situations can sometimes give you strength and if not strength then maybe you as a person like who you are, don't feel the need to change because someone tells you to.

sgu999 3y ago

> those teachers too were probably doing their best, and making mistakes, as we all do Some people are simply arseholes or incompetent and others have unresolved issues. Compassion and empathy are important, but I don't think we should project good intentions onto everyone. I prefer to assume that a teacher who says verbatim that a 6yo is "naturally bad at *" is a bad professional, and an arsehole.

moribvndvs 3y ago

A lot of this hits home very hard for me. I’d extend it beyond school to my anger with religion and how the world generally functions. I found spite and anger started in the latter half of high school, where I found myself struggling when previously education had been a breeze. This, of course, coincides with the point where your education starts to impress conformity and a particular way of doing things, as well as increasing reliance on fixtures that I do not thrive in (such as standardized testing). I didn’t know I had ADHD until nearly middle age. However, I didn’t notice because I didn’t have the language to even understand it let alone tools to manage it, and it “didn’t matter” because I was able to turn it into relative success. On the other hand, the cost of this has been high. My self-esteem is very poor. This can result in unhealthy, erratic, and self-destructive behaviors to compensate or mask my insecurities from myself or others. I sometimes let myself get taken advantage of and don’t advocate for myself because I think I deserve it and I fear failure. I work below my capabilities and overestimate risk for the same reasons. I often mistake self-deprecation as humility. I set very high standards for myself which are sometimes impossible to achieve, and I treat myself brutally when I don’t, creating a terrible feedback loop which results in burn out, anxiety and panic attacks, apathy, and reclusion. I also feel pathologically compelled to prove that I’m intelligent and capable, which can be annoying and off-putting to friends and coworkers. I have compulsions to take on more than I can handle, which naturally results in falling short and ironically disappointing people and risking devaluation. I try to control things because I’m afraid if things are done a way that I don’t understand, I’ll fail. It’s fucking exhausting, and it sucks. I don’t feel sorry for myself, but I’m tired of feeling like worthless shit and letting people (and myself) walk on me. I feel like I have untold depths of potential I’m just wasting, but I don’t know how to exploit them. I don’t want to coddle myself, but I wish I could just love and forgive myself in a healthy way and not feel shame all the time. I wish I would stop yelling at myself in my own head the entire time I’m awake. The worse part is that all this shame, fear, depression, and anxiety colors your worldview and impacts how you treat others. I’m not wretched to other people, in fact I honestly believe my friends and coworkers find me kind, generous, respectful, and supportive. I try to be nice to others and give them the benefit of the doubt. But I sometimes demand too much, treat people paternally, and I focus on negatives. It pains me to admit but I’m not always honest (with them or myself) and I’m not always reliable, qualities that I cherish in others. When I forget there’s a real person on the other side, all that unrelenting judgement and poor self esteem can result in pettiness and trollish behavior. I’m still trying to figure out what to do about all of this. My partner has been a great help. Part of the process is what you saw happen here: a straight forward inventory of your feelings and being honest with yourself. Then, sometimes with the help of others, you can reevaluate the severity and sincerity of a perceived problem. Discard those things that don’t pass muster, and focus on the rest. From there you start by just forgiving yourself, committing to not repeating those mistakes using quantifiable measures, and building healthy new behaviors around positive results. Be honest about what you can do, whether you _want_ to do it, and hold yourself accountable. And if you fuck it up again on the way, just recalibrate and try again, no fury or wrath is going to make it better. Celebrate appropriately when you do something right because fear of hating yourself is not a good motivator. Mindfulness seems like such a weak, simplistic, and hand-wavy solution but it’s worked better than any punishment I’ve metted out on myself in the past. Sorry this was so long, thanks for your time if you got this far.

n4r9 3y ago

I found this really interesting. I excelled academically and was a teacher/lecturer's pet. Yet I have the same fear of failure and looking like an idiot. The root cause is different - I fear failure because I didn't fail often enough growing up and never learnt to process it - but the consequence is virtually identical. The only real difference is that I don't feel spite. I am prone to arrogance though. It seems like there's a sweet spot of failing some proportion of the time, which leads to humble confidence in later life.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Thesis: ADHD is caused by low-quality educational systems (generally characterized by overcrowded classrooms, boringly repetitive rote learning, inattentive underpaid teachers, etc.) - it's not a result of genetics. This thesis is supported by these facts: (1) there's no solid objective diagnostic test for ADHD at the biochemical level, and (2) there's no solid genetic determinant of who and who won't come down with ADHD. This doesn't mean ADHD isn't real, it's just much more likely to be a symptom of societal failure to provide quality education for children than 'an inherent defect'.

mortallywounded 3y ago

When I was young, I was categorized as "learning disabled". I wasn't allowed to take a second language in middle school or high school. I took "special" classes that were dumbed down for kids like me. I had a lot of resentment and spite-- that's for sure. I was accepted to college, no doubt with the help of my special categorization. When I began my studies I made it a point to take the hardest second language I could (Japanese at the time) and study abroad in Japan. I also made it a point to get a master degree in engineering, and then built a million dollar company on my own. So fuck them and their categories.

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donaldjoan36 3y ago

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