3 ms·

One fun scenario for the future is rich households progressively going off-grid, leaving poorer households to finance a larger share of the grid costs, which in

One fun scenario for the future is rich households progressively going off-grid, leaving poorer households to finance a larger share of the grid costs, which increases incentives to go off-grid until everybody who can afford it is off grid and the remainder struggles to pay for the infrastructure.

dacryn 3y ago
I don't think we'll get there anywhere soon. We're close to being able to go off grid to our current standards of living. Add in 2 EV's per household and you won't be able to do it all year round without grid connections.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  No, he's got a point, I'm pretty much there, but for a bit of storage and an inverter upgrade it would be a done deal but for now the grid is still cheaper for storage.
- otabdeveloper4 3y ago
  > 2 EV's per household The only way that's physically possible is if these EV's are electric scooters.
pjc50 3y ago
Only really going to be a thing in the far exurbs. There's no point in trying to go off grid in a city. Even people in countries with unreliable grids are still connected most of the time.
- bagels 3y ago
  I've considered it quite a bit in California. You are charged a nontrivial amount of money just to be connected and consuming no energy. That and the power went out for many days, multiple times this year.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Yeah, I feel that standing charges should be a political issue, not just in California, because they're regressive and don't encourage people to save energy. If they were to bundle it into the per-unit cost, that would be better for low-income users and provide more of an incentive for high-consumption users to economize (or do their own generation to offset).
    - fy20 3y ago
      In my country there is no standing charge, everything is within the price you pay per kWh. If you usage is 0 kWh, your bill is €0. However only about half of what we pay goes towards electricity, the rest is for transmission and infrastructure costs and taxes. I have solar that covers all my usage, and net metering, but I still need to ~€30 per month to cover the cost of storing it and taking it back from the grid. I'd be paying around €120 if I didn't have solar.
lelanthran 3y ago
> One fun scenario for the future is rich households progressively going off-grid, leaving poorer households to finance a larger share of the grid costs, which increases incentives to go off-grid until everybody who can afford it is off grid and the remainder struggles to pay for the infrastructure. I don't think it's going to be rich households vs poor households, it's going to be sparse residential areas vs dense residential areas, respectively. Because, in all honesty, you aren't going off-grid if you don't exclusively own the roof (for solar). And because solar nets so little power per square meter, you need a lot of panels per household. A single roof over a six-floor apartment building just isn't going to have enough surface area to let the residents go off-grid. A single roof over a single-family home in the suburbs is generally enough.
thelastgallon 3y ago
rich household won't go off-grid. They will stay on grid, their solar supplies power to the grid, EVs supply power at peak prices, replacing peaker plants. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo...

dacryn 3y ago

I don't think we'll get there anywhere soon. We're close to being able to go off grid to our current standards of living. Add in 2 EV's per household and you won't be able to do it all year round without grid connections.

jacquesm 3y ago
No, he's got a point, I'm pretty much there, but for a bit of storage and an inverter upgrade it would be a done deal but for now the grid is still cheaper for storage.
otabdeveloper4 3y ago
> 2 EV's per household The only way that's physically possible is if these EV's are electric scooters.

pjc50 3y ago

Only really going to be a thing in the far exurbs. There's no point in trying to go off grid in a city. Even people in countries with unreliable grids are still connected most of the time.

bagels 3y ago
I've considered it quite a bit in California. You are charged a nontrivial amount of money just to be connected and consuming no energy. That and the power went out for many days, multiple times this year.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Yeah, I feel that standing charges should be a political issue, not just in California, because they're regressive and don't encourage people to save energy. If they were to bundle it into the per-unit cost, that would be better for low-income users and provide more of an incentive for high-consumption users to economize (or do their own generation to offset).
  - fy20 3y ago
    In my country there is no standing charge, everything is within the price you pay per kWh. If you usage is 0 kWh, your bill is €0. However only about half of what we pay goes towards electricity, the rest is for transmission and infrastructure costs and taxes. I have solar that covers all my usage, and net metering, but I still need to ~€30 per month to cover the cost of storing it and taking it back from the grid. I'd be paying around €120 if I didn't have solar.

lelanthran 3y ago

> One fun scenario for the future is rich households progressively going off-grid, leaving poorer households to finance a larger share of the grid costs, which increases incentives to go off-grid until everybody who can afford it is off grid and the remainder struggles to pay for the infrastructure. I don't think it's going to be rich households vs poor households, it's going to be sparse residential areas vs dense residential areas, respectively. Because, in all honesty, you aren't going off-grid if you don't exclusively own the roof (for solar). And because solar nets so little power per square meter, you need a lot of panels per household. A single roof over a six-floor apartment building just isn't going to have enough surface area to let the residents go off-grid. A single roof over a single-family home in the suburbs is generally enough.

thelastgallon 3y ago

rich household won't go off-grid. They will stay on grid, their solar supplies power to the grid, EVs supply power at peak prices, replacing peaker plants. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo...