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My first instinct was to post a detailed takedown, and I started to go into Washington State's unemployment system eligibility and benefit criteria... but on re

by mapt 3y ago

My first instinct was to post a detailed takedown, and I started to go into Washington State's unemployment system eligibility and benefit criteria... but on reflection I don't think most of those things you just told us actually happened. There is a history of anti-welfare activists lying about the facts they have observed and those lies forming immortal zombie collective memories. Numerous examples in Reagan speeches are still repeated as fact today despite being debunked in the 80's, repeated as part of a consensus conventional wisdom by both political parties. So why bother? If you'd like to sanity-check your recollections, try to figure out what the people in question would be eligible for, and try to figure out what it would actually cost to live in Seattle. I will point out the number of politicians who were shocked, shocked when they went to backdoor COVID relief through the unemployment system, and found that most state systems were deliberately neglected to the point of abject dysfunction, or had erected punitive gating systems that defeated most applicants.

FireBeyond 3y ago
Apropos of anything else, COVID relief was never going to come through the unemployment system. Too many issues of pride and other such things like you mention, but also the grift potential of the PPP scheme worked hugely in its favor. As of now, less than 15% of those loans were ever paid back (I know that forgiveness was an expected part of it, but nonetheless, that number…)
WalterBright 3y ago
> I don't think most of those things you just told us actually happened Believe whatever you need to. But consider this: People are fundamentally selfish. Building a system that assumes general altruistic behavior is not going to work very well. Assuming people will not take advantage of rules for their personal benefit is naive. Consider politicians. Have you ever noticed that people tend to go into Congress as middle class people and come out wealthy? How do you think that happens? Altruism? How many people offered student loan forgiveness will say "no thanks, I borrowed the money, I'll pay it back!"? The people I mentioned were not breaking the law. But they were taking advantage of it.
- User23 3y ago
  I think people raise hundreds of millions of dollars to win a job that pays less than a junior SWE because they’re just so darn public spirited, obviously.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Just some thoughts from a fellow graybeard (if I had a beard). Take em or leave em: Bitterness about somebody else who's worse off than you getting things you don't think they deserve, doesn't add to one's own happiness or wellbeing. Don't let those example people live rent-free in your head. They're barely eeking out an existence on some US State's laughable safety net. I seem to remember you're likely a computer professional and doing just fine. If you're one of the few people in the world doing well enough to be paying into a system rather than relying on one, thank your lucky stars for how blessed you are. Ultimately, nobody on their deathbed contemplating their life cares about who their taxes were spent on. If you simply must be mad at someone getting government handouts without need, there's a big list of companies who use accounting tricks to pay no taxes and even get subsidies from the government. You're probably better off being mad at them than some guy who's figured out how to go fishing while collecting unemployment.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    I'm just saying that when you incentivize people to do X, be aware that X is what you're going to get, every time. I remember when the unit at the company I worked for decided to put a big graph of the bug count on the wall, and announced incentives for retiring bug reports. Within a week, the entire unit had devolved into knock-down drag out fights over who had solved a bug, if a bug was really a bug, if a bug was actually 3 bugs and the person should get 3 credits for solving it, people filing fake bug reports and then "fixing" them, etc. A couple more weeks of that and the graph was taken down and the incentive program terminated. These were intelligent, well-educated people, going berserk. There was another case where the company got a big contract from IBM, and hired some mercenary contractors to fulfill it. Part of the deal was each mercenary got a $10,000 bonus (worth about $30,000 today) for getting it done on time. I'm sure you know what happened. It shipped the day before the deadline. I asked one of them, "did the bonus get you to finish on time?" The response, "absolutely not, it had nothing to do with it. We're professionals!"

by mapt 3y ago

FireBeyond 3y ago

Apropos of anything else, COVID relief was never going to come through the unemployment system. Too many issues of pride and other such things like you mention, but also the grift potential of the PPP scheme worked hugely in its favor. As of now, less than 15% of those loans were ever paid back (I know that forgiveness was an expected part of it, but nonetheless, that number…)

WalterBright 3y ago

> I don't think most of those things you just told us actually happened Believe whatever you need to. But consider this: People are fundamentally selfish. Building a system that assumes general altruistic behavior is not going to work very well. Assuming people will not take advantage of rules for their personal benefit is naive. Consider politicians. Have you ever noticed that people tend to go into Congress as middle class people and come out wealthy? How do you think that happens? Altruism? How many people offered student loan forgiveness will say "no thanks, I borrowed the money, I'll pay it back!"? The people I mentioned were not breaking the law. But they were taking advantage of it.

User23 3y ago
I think people raise hundreds of millions of dollars to win a job that pays less than a junior SWE because they’re just so darn public spirited, obviously.
ryandrake 3y ago
Just some thoughts from a fellow graybeard (if I had a beard). Take em or leave em: Bitterness about somebody else who's worse off than you getting things you don't think they deserve, doesn't add to one's own happiness or wellbeing. Don't let those example people live rent-free in your head. They're barely eeking out an existence on some US State's laughable safety net. I seem to remember you're likely a computer professional and doing just fine. If you're one of the few people in the world doing well enough to be paying into a system rather than relying on one, thank your lucky stars for how blessed you are. Ultimately, nobody on their deathbed contemplating their life cares about who their taxes were spent on. If you simply must be mad at someone getting government handouts without need, there's a big list of companies who use accounting tricks to pay no taxes and even get subsidies from the government. You're probably better off being mad at them than some guy who's figured out how to go fishing while collecting unemployment.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  I'm just saying that when you incentivize people to do X, be aware that X is what you're going to get, every time. I remember when the unit at the company I worked for decided to put a big graph of the bug count on the wall, and announced incentives for retiring bug reports. Within a week, the entire unit had devolved into knock-down drag out fights over who had solved a bug, if a bug was really a bug, if a bug was actually 3 bugs and the person should get 3 credits for solving it, people filing fake bug reports and then "fixing" them, etc. A couple more weeks of that and the graph was taken down and the incentive program terminated. These were intelligent, well-educated people, going berserk. There was another case where the company got a big contract from IBM, and hired some mercenary contractors to fulfill it. Part of the deal was each mercenary got a $10,000 bonus (worth about $30,000 today) for getting it done on time. I'm sure you know what happened. It shipped the day before the deadline. I asked one of them, "did the bonus get you to finish on time?" The response, "absolutely not, it had nothing to do with it. We're professionals!"