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I find it bemusing that this is presented as somehow suprising and clashing with formerly held SV ideals. As if a lot of these companies don't already have mass

I find it bemusing that this is presented as somehow suprising and clashing with formerly held SV ideals. As if a lot of these companies don't already have mass user survellance as their primary business model.

Avshalom 3y ago
Right, basically the entire post-2000-crash version of silicon valley has been built on selling user data to advertisers or selling ways to use that data to advertisers.
Phiwise_ 3y ago
>But even from this remove it was possible to glean certain patterns, and one that recurred as regularly as an urban legend was the one about how someone would move into a commune populated by sandal-wearing, peace-sign flashing flower children, and eventually discover that, underneath this facade, the guys who ran it were actually control freaks; and that, as living in a commune, where much lip service was paid to ideals of peace, love and harmony, had deprived them of normal, socially approved outlets for their control-freakdom, it tended to come out in other, invariably more sinister, ways. Applying this to the case of Apple Computer will be left as an exercise for the reader, and not a very difficult exercise. -Neal Stephenson, 1999, "In the Beginning was the Command Line" The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  It was on this HN forum that I was first introduced to the remarkable essay on the Californian Ideology[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Californian_Ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Californian_Ideology
  - Phiwise_ 3y ago
    >Above all, they are passionate advocates of what appears to be an impeccably libertarian form of politics - they want information technologies to be used to create a new 'Jeffersonian democracy' where all individuals will be able to express themselves freely within cyberspace. However, by championing this seemingly admirable ideal, these techno-boosters are at the same time reproducing some of the most atavistic features of American society, especially those derived from the bitter legacy of slavery. I suppose the loose definition of remarkable could indeed technically apply to the assertion that "capitalists" jumped on board the http and tcp/ip bandwagon to reassert plantation slavery. Regardless, you've missed the wider context of the anecdote. Stephenson is referring to the stereotypical experiences on hippie communes during the boomer scene era, well before Barbrook and Cameron's concerns about some sort of subversion or other. They even explicitly specify that some pre-90s era of the bay area ideology obviously knew better, so they're in direct disagreement with Stephenson here. We have to pick one or the other. Frankly, I think I know which I prefer between "There's more continuity between the hippies and the yuppies than you typically expect in the valley" and "investors are supercharging democratized communication because it will make you racist and capitalist, which are equally bad". For the rest of the context, you can read the essay here, which I think is a legal copy; Stephenson himself did also distribute it as a pdf: http://project.cyberpunk.ru/lib/in_the_beginning_was_the_command_line/ http://project.cyberpunk.ru/lib/in_the_beginning_was_the_com...
    - nonrandomstring 3y ago
      Thanks so much for that full essay! Absolutely fascinating. I'm not a Californian, nor even an American, but understanding the culture behind the last 40 years of digital technology... and why, after staring out so hopeful it's gone so wrong, is important stuff.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
The values of SV have changed. I imagine that The Economist are thinking of figures like Steve Jobs who once typified the Valley. Jobs was once a highly regarded influential figure who described computers as "like a bicycle for the mind". Later, such thinkers gave way to a new generation of people like Mark Zuckerberg, for whom users are "dumb fucks". For those absorbed in the other hair-splitting/derailing thread, the word "piling" generally means to rush in foolishly with zealous enthusiasm (or worse, to do so without control), so the Economist headline contains a note of subtle judgement.
spondylosaurus 3y ago
You're not wrong, but I'd argue there's some gulf between using personal data to show people banner ads for overpriced sneakers and using personal data to help law enforcement throw people in jail. You could certainly do the former but draw the line at the latter. With the former it's less about the outcome—seeing obnoxious Nike ads on the internet—and more about the principle of not wanting your data to be collected, even if nothing nefarious ever comes of it. With the latter you're seeing that worst case scenario come to life.
- pydry 3y ago
  If argue that there isnt that much of a gulf. It's a bit further down a slippery slope. I'd also argue that ideals in Silicon Valley are, cultrually, fully subordinated to money anyway so... it's probably a moot point how much of a gulf there is.
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    Hard agree re. money and ideals. I guess what I'd counter is that someone with a pinch of integrity (so not the current incarnation of SV lol) could absolutely build a business from questionable data practices without going whole hog into narc-dom. Like how a casino can be predatory in its own right without also funneling money into the mob.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  Are you saying Google and Meta don’t provide your personal information to law enforcement? Last I checked they do that whenever they’re asked to and to great levels of success (especially the list of all phones that were found within the area of a crime).
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    They definitely do, but there's a difference between being subpoenaed (i.e., forced to comply) and deliberately choosing to work with LE because it's profitable to you. A cop can force me to show him my emails or text messages, but that doesn't mean I want to or that I'm making money any off of it. On the other hand, if I offer to let them read my emails for the low price of $10... And literally anyone can be subpoenaed in the same fashion—FB and Google aren't unique in that regard. LE could subpoena the guy who runs your local deli and force him to hand over a list of every customer who came in on a certain day.
nologic01 3y ago
SV ideals? Besides the fake techo-optimism peddled to provide techies an excuse to join the party, there is but one "ideal".
- kelipso 3y ago
  Looking back I'm seeing it as an effective recruiting technique for college grads.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Avshalom 3y ago

Right, basically the entire post-2000-crash version of silicon valley has been built on selling user data to advertisers or selling ways to use that data to advertisers.

Phiwise_ 3y ago

>But even from this remove it was possible to glean certain patterns, and one that recurred as regularly as an urban legend was the one about how someone would move into a commune populated by sandal-wearing, peace-sign flashing flower children, and eventually discover that, underneath this facade, the guys who ran it were actually control freaks; and that, as living in a commune, where much lip service was paid to ideals of peace, love and harmony, had deprived them of normal, socially approved outlets for their control-freakdom, it tended to come out in other, invariably more sinister, ways. Applying this to the case of Apple Computer will be left as an exercise for the reader, and not a very difficult exercise. -Neal Stephenson, 1999, "In the Beginning was the Command Line" The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

nonrandomstring 3y ago
It was on this HN forum that I was first introduced to the remarkable essay on the Californian Ideology[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Californian_Ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Californian_Ideology
- Phiwise_ 3y ago
  >Above all, they are passionate advocates of what appears to be an impeccably libertarian form of politics - they want information technologies to be used to create a new 'Jeffersonian democracy' where all individuals will be able to express themselves freely within cyberspace. However, by championing this seemingly admirable ideal, these techno-boosters are at the same time reproducing some of the most atavistic features of American society, especially those derived from the bitter legacy of slavery. I suppose the loose definition of remarkable could indeed technically apply to the assertion that "capitalists" jumped on board the http and tcp/ip bandwagon to reassert plantation slavery. Regardless, you've missed the wider context of the anecdote. Stephenson is referring to the stereotypical experiences on hippie communes during the boomer scene era, well before Barbrook and Cameron's concerns about some sort of subversion or other. They even explicitly specify that some pre-90s era of the bay area ideology obviously knew better, so they're in direct disagreement with Stephenson here. We have to pick one or the other. Frankly, I think I know which I prefer between "There's more continuity between the hippies and the yuppies than you typically expect in the valley" and "investors are supercharging democratized communication because it will make you racist and capitalist, which are equally bad". For the rest of the context, you can read the essay here, which I think is a legal copy; Stephenson himself did also distribute it as a pdf: http://project.cyberpunk.ru/lib/in_the_beginning_was_the_command_line/ http://project.cyberpunk.ru/lib/in_the_beginning_was_the_com...
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    Thanks so much for that full essay! Absolutely fascinating. I'm not a Californian, nor even an American, but understanding the culture behind the last 40 years of digital technology... and why, after staring out so hopeful it's gone so wrong, is important stuff.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

The values of SV have changed. I imagine that The Economist are thinking of figures like Steve Jobs who once typified the Valley. Jobs was once a highly regarded influential figure who described computers as "like a bicycle for the mind". Later, such thinkers gave way to a new generation of people like Mark Zuckerberg, for whom users are "dumb fucks". For those absorbed in the other hair-splitting/derailing thread, the word "piling" generally means to rush in foolishly with zealous enthusiasm (or worse, to do so without control), so the Economist headline contains a note of subtle judgement.

spondylosaurus 3y ago

You're not wrong, but I'd argue there's some gulf between using personal data to show people banner ads for overpriced sneakers and using personal data to help law enforcement throw people in jail. You could certainly do the former but draw the line at the latter. With the former it's less about the outcome—seeing obnoxious Nike ads on the internet—and more about the principle of not wanting your data to be collected, even if nothing nefarious ever comes of it. With the latter you're seeing that worst case scenario come to life.

pydry 3y ago
If argue that there isnt that much of a gulf. It's a bit further down a slippery slope. I'd also argue that ideals in Silicon Valley are, cultrually, fully subordinated to money anyway so... it's probably a moot point how much of a gulf there is.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  Hard agree re. money and ideals. I guess what I'd counter is that someone with a pinch of integrity (so not the current incarnation of SV lol) could absolutely build a business from questionable data practices without going whole hog into narc-dom. Like how a casino can be predatory in its own right without also funneling money into the mob.
ramraj07 3y ago
Are you saying Google and Meta don’t provide your personal information to law enforcement? Last I checked they do that whenever they’re asked to and to great levels of success (especially the list of all phones that were found within the area of a crime).
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  They definitely do, but there's a difference between being subpoenaed (i.e., forced to comply) and deliberately choosing to work with LE because it's profitable to you. A cop can force me to show him my emails or text messages, but that doesn't mean I want to or that I'm making money any off of it. On the other hand, if I offer to let them read my emails for the low price of $10... And literally anyone can be subpoenaed in the same fashion—FB and Google aren't unique in that regard. LE could subpoena the guy who runs your local deli and force him to hand over a list of every customer who came in on a certain day.

nologic01 3y ago

SV ideals? Besides the fake techo-optimism peddled to provide techies an excuse to join the party, there is but one "ideal".

kelipso 3y ago
Looking back I'm seeing it as an effective recruiting technique for college grads.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]