4 ms·

Yes. Instead of escaping, let's solve the problem instead.

freedomben 3y ago
Why do you think the former precludes the latter? This seems to be like if someone comes to a doctor with an arrow stuck through him, someone saying "don't give him any pain killers, that's bad. Just take the arrow out so the problem is solved." You should obviously remove the arrow to correct the root cause, but you don't need to deny the patient pain killers in order to do so. Judging him morally or legally for wanting them doesn't make sense to me, short of claiming that an unprovable all powerful being who talks to man only through extremely unreliable and non reproducable channels has revealed to us that it's actually a sin.
- gehwartzen 3y ago
  For me it depends on context; Pain exists for a purpose (i.e don't put wait on a broken leg otherwise you could extend healing time or make things worse) but if technology allows us to mitigate the potential problems (i.e fixing the bone and apply a cast will allow you to walk but not add strain) getting ride of pain in the meantime is probably a net good. If you have chronic pain of some sort and you use substances to mask that pain the root problem hasn't been addressed and still exists, you just won't be aware of it. If loosing awareness (which at its simplest is what painkillers do) of the ongoing problem is okey with you by all means take a substance to mask it, just don't be surprised when the original problem grows worse latter. Im okey with people masking or not masking. It should be a personal choice free of judgement. There are two guys and both are extremely depressed. One guy decides to seek out a therapist and has a meeting set for two weeks from now, the other guy decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day. The first guy is super depressed day to day but maybe the therapy will help... The next week they are on a plane together that crashes. Who made the better decision? Alternatively they don't die and instead live decades more. The first guy got to the root of his issues and lived a very happy life while the second eventually burned out and fell into even deeper depression for his remaining years. Who made the better decision? It is not fair for us to judge others on how they would like to treat their own bodies and minds. We don't know the totality of their path through life.
  - jonathanlb 3y ago
    Your point is taken, but it's not quite apples-to-apples. Therapy can be a deep healing process or a superficial fix, just as psychedelics like shrooms, LSD, or MDMA can be used daily by some (suggesting a shamanic lifestyle, in my opinion) or lead to profound insights in a single ayahuasca trip for others. It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions. But when comparing, we should ensure we're not misrepresenting the situation, whether intentionally or not.
    - gehwartzen 3y ago
      Totally. Yeah the comparison was extreme and not meant to equate things. >"It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions." Very well said. I have had great success with psychedelics and other mind-altering substances but doesn't mean the next person will. I have yet to reap a great benefit from therapy but perhaps I just haven't found the right therapist either. To each their own.
  - socks 3y ago
    > decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've never taken LSD or shrooms... personally, taking them every day sounds nightmarishly exhausing (can't speak to MDMA). In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them.
    - gehwartzen 3y ago
      I have taken LSD and Shrooms countless times. I take MDMA multiple times a month as well. I guess the point though, for that example, was more along the lines of: take whatever substance floats your boat as much as you desire to remain in a happy state. >"In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them." MDMA will defiantly mask your problems. As will heroin, GBH, and a number of others. But yeah LSD/shrooms not so much.
jamiek88 3y ago
How do you solve stage 4 terminal cancer?
- rpearl 3y ago
  The problem to be solved in this case is unnecessary distress and pain about one's inevitable death.
  - wholinator2 3y ago
    And how do you solve that
    - dieselgate 3y ago
      One common solution is the hospice system. There's no silver bullet for any of this and it's a bit irksome see so many comments treating this like a "5 whys" exercise
      - DontchaKnowit 3y ago
        And what is hospice but pumping someone full of morphine and ativan until they die?
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        I can tell you from first hand experience that while the hospice system is certainly better than nothing and has extremely helpful and useful aspects, it's also extremely expensive where i live and the only "spiritual" assistance available is through one specific church, as far as i was aware. Sure, she had a moderately comfy bed and assistants that came to drain her bags and talk but she was still terrified and constantly drugged up to keep from freaking out. Any tool that has even a chance of helping retain sanity and humanity in such a trial is worth researching and communicating. These psychedelic drugs provide a service that simply cannot be achieved with any hospice system, anywhere in the world, ever. To actively advocate against the dying beings allowed to feel peace is inhuman, incomprehensible, and if i weren't certain it was pure naivety, evil. Psychedelics bring peace to the dying. What harm is that? That's what you're arguing against
omginternets 3y ago
The problem here is acceptance of one’s mortality. What solution do you propose?
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  Accept it fully.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    Quite. How do you propose to do that? And more importantly, how do you propose people who struggle to do this reach that acceptance?
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    The article talks about that and it seems the patient did accept the mortality fully: > It wasn't that he was filled with spiritual language like, "God's gonna save me." No, it was an acceptance for his condition and a reassurance to the people he loved most, that everything was OK, everything was as it should be, and they felt uplifted by that.
  - wholinator2 3y ago
    It seems you're nearing the message. How does one accept that fully? What do we do in the face of struggles with what may be the greatest struggle a human being ever faces? Could there be some technique that could help? What would that technique look like? Could it include the ingestion of a substance? If ingesting said substance along with guided meditation was vastly superior to all other techniques of death acceptance, would that be avoiding the problem with drugs? I think what you're not understanding is that taking the drug is the death acceptance technique. It is the thing that allows these people to quickly transition into peace. Do you have a better way? Could you please share that so all of our dying family members could finally have the simple solution you seem to be aware of?
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      The drug is just exposing these subjects to the experience of living fully in the present moment. This is not something that can be done as "one weird trick", it requires true spiritual maturation-- and yet, people who haven't learned how to do this are literally dying every single day, whether they realize this or not. Whatever time is past for them, is in Death's hands already. They can choose to dwell on this, or just not bother and live life to the fullest as best they can.
barbs 3y ago
That's ideal, but some people don't have the resources to do that.

Why do you think the former precludes the latter? This seems to be like if someone comes to a doctor with an arrow stuck through him, someone saying "don't give him any pain killers, that's bad. Just take the arrow out so the problem is solved." You should obviously remove the arrow to correct the root cause, but you don't need to deny the patient pain killers in order to do so. Judging him morally or legally for wanting them doesn't make sense to me, short of claiming that an unprovable all powerful being who talks to man only through extremely unreliable and non reproducable channels has revealed to us that it's actually a sin.

gehwartzen 3y ago
For me it depends on context; Pain exists for a purpose (i.e don't put wait on a broken leg otherwise you could extend healing time or make things worse) but if technology allows us to mitigate the potential problems (i.e fixing the bone and apply a cast will allow you to walk but not add strain) getting ride of pain in the meantime is probably a net good. If you have chronic pain of some sort and you use substances to mask that pain the root problem hasn't been addressed and still exists, you just won't be aware of it. If loosing awareness (which at its simplest is what painkillers do) of the ongoing problem is okey with you by all means take a substance to mask it, just don't be surprised when the original problem grows worse latter. Im okey with people masking or not masking. It should be a personal choice free of judgement. There are two guys and both are extremely depressed. One guy decides to seek out a therapist and has a meeting set for two weeks from now, the other guy decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day. The first guy is super depressed day to day but maybe the therapy will help... The next week they are on a plane together that crashes. Who made the better decision? Alternatively they don't die and instead live decades more. The first guy got to the root of his issues and lived a very happy life while the second eventually burned out and fell into even deeper depression for his remaining years. Who made the better decision? It is not fair for us to judge others on how they would like to treat their own bodies and minds. We don't know the totality of their path through life.
- jonathanlb 3y ago
  Your point is taken, but it's not quite apples-to-apples. Therapy can be a deep healing process or a superficial fix, just as psychedelics like shrooms, LSD, or MDMA can be used daily by some (suggesting a shamanic lifestyle, in my opinion) or lead to profound insights in a single ayahuasca trip for others. It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions. But when comparing, we should ensure we're not misrepresenting the situation, whether intentionally or not.
  - gehwartzen 3y ago
    Totally. Yeah the comparison was extreme and not meant to equate things. >"It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions." Very well said. I have had great success with psychedelics and other mind-altering substances but doesn't mean the next person will. I have yet to reap a great benefit from therapy but perhaps I just haven't found the right therapist either. To each their own.
- socks 3y ago
  > decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've never taken LSD or shrooms... personally, taking them every day sounds nightmarishly exhausing (can't speak to MDMA). In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them.
  - gehwartzen 3y ago
    I have taken LSD and Shrooms countless times. I take MDMA multiple times a month as well. I guess the point though, for that example, was more along the lines of: take whatever substance floats your boat as much as you desire to remain in a happy state. >"In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them." MDMA will defiantly mask your problems. As will heroin, GBH, and a number of others. But yeah LSD/shrooms not so much.

jamiek88 3y ago

How do you solve stage 4 terminal cancer?

rpearl 3y ago
The problem to be solved in this case is unnecessary distress and pain about one's inevitable death.
- wholinator2 3y ago
  And how do you solve that
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    One common solution is the hospice system. There's no silver bullet for any of this and it's a bit irksome see so many comments treating this like a "5 whys" exercise
    - DontchaKnowit 3y ago
      And what is hospice but pumping someone full of morphine and ativan until they die?
    - wholinator2 3y ago
      I can tell you from first hand experience that while the hospice system is certainly better than nothing and has extremely helpful and useful aspects, it's also extremely expensive where i live and the only "spiritual" assistance available is through one specific church, as far as i was aware. Sure, she had a moderately comfy bed and assistants that came to drain her bags and talk but she was still terrified and constantly drugged up to keep from freaking out. Any tool that has even a chance of helping retain sanity and humanity in such a trial is worth researching and communicating. These psychedelic drugs provide a service that simply cannot be achieved with any hospice system, anywhere in the world, ever. To actively advocate against the dying beings allowed to feel peace is inhuman, incomprehensible, and if i weren't certain it was pure naivety, evil. Psychedelics bring peace to the dying. What harm is that? That's what you're arguing against

omginternets 3y ago

The problem here is acceptance of one’s mortality. What solution do you propose?

pizzafeelsright 3y ago
Accept it fully.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Quite. How do you propose to do that? And more importantly, how do you propose people who struggle to do this reach that acceptance?
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  The article talks about that and it seems the patient did accept the mortality fully: > It wasn't that he was filled with spiritual language like, "God's gonna save me." No, it was an acceptance for his condition and a reassurance to the people he loved most, that everything was OK, everything was as it should be, and they felt uplifted by that.
- wholinator2 3y ago
  It seems you're nearing the message. How does one accept that fully? What do we do in the face of struggles with what may be the greatest struggle a human being ever faces? Could there be some technique that could help? What would that technique look like? Could it include the ingestion of a substance? If ingesting said substance along with guided meditation was vastly superior to all other techniques of death acceptance, would that be avoiding the problem with drugs? I think what you're not understanding is that taking the drug is the death acceptance technique. It is the thing that allows these people to quickly transition into peace. Do you have a better way? Could you please share that so all of our dying family members could finally have the simple solution you seem to be aware of?
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    The drug is just exposing these subjects to the experience of living fully in the present moment. This is not something that can be done as "one weird trick", it requires true spiritual maturation-- and yet, people who haven't learned how to do this are literally dying every single day, whether they realize this or not. Whatever time is past for them, is in Death's hands already. They can choose to dwell on this, or just not bother and live life to the fullest as best they can.

barbs 3y ago

That's ideal, but some people don't have the resources to do that.