5 ms·
That isn't a whole lot more than the cost per kilometer to construct urban roads with a comparable passenger throughput, though. And construction cost alone isn
by mumblemumble 3y ago
That isn't a whole lot more than the cost per kilometer to construct urban roads with a comparable passenger throughput, though. And construction cost alone isn't exactly a fair price comparison because users of urban roads tend to need to supply their own vehicles, at considerable cost to themselves, and more money also has to be spent to provide space to store those vehicles when not in use.
And you could argue that roads are actually even more expensive to invest in because they tend to create a feedback cycle that promotes even more spending on road construction. Because as more people use roads, you need to widen them to increase their carrying capacity, and because road-oriented infrastructure encourages sprawl that pushes people toward choosing driving, and spending more time on the roads, which increases the need for more roads to be built.
A nice case study here is Chicago versus Detroit. Proportionally speaking, they had similar and approximately contemporaneous population growth and loss trends over the 20th century. But that trend didn't cause the same financial catastrophe for Chicago that it did for Detroit, and one argument for why this is is that, since Chicago retained a denser, more public transit oriented urban plan, its infrastructure costs relative to population stayed lower, which in turn meant that it was able to weather a lot more population decline without its economy shrinking too much to be able to affordably maintain its infrastructure, including transportation infrastructure.
- bluGill 3y agoRoads are about $5m/km in the US. Over course size matters, but that number covers a two lane road near me that goes to a school (read designed for school buses) In Spain $100m/km gets you a subway.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoThe new rapid transit line in Montreal mostly elevated. A comparable road project would be a bridge or an overpass, and you certainly can't buy those for $5m/km.
- hylaride 3y agoA surface road being cheaper than a tunnel shouldn’t surprise anybody, but a single highway lane can move about 2,000 cars an hour (much less for city streets). Assuming all the cars have two people (they don’t) that’s 4,000 people an hour. A modern metro line can do 40,000 an hour (in Tokyo they’ll do 60K/hour packing people in like sardines). So you need a 10 lane road in one direction just to match the single line’s people movement. Of course, the whole concept is moot considering the built form around said subway line needs to be able to support having ridership like that.
- robocat 3y ago> isn't exactly a fair price comparison because users of urban roads tend to need to supply their own vehicles, at considerable cost to themselves Which isn't a fair comparison at all because you are completely ignoring the positive values of vehicles. I live in Christchurch, with very cheap buses. One destination I need takes me >2 hours by bus that is <15 minutes by car (bus is star network and long waits). Another destination I need has a bus one way once a day only on business days. And I often am carrying more than a backpack can take. Making lopsided comparisons is just inane.
- bluGill 3y agoA bad network is something to fix not use as an excuse
- sokoloff 3y agoUntil/unless it's fixed, the only reasonable daily life response is to "do what you need to do and is under your direct influence".
- bluGill 3y agoThat defeatist attitude is why we are where we are. Yes you do what you need to to day, but part of that is getting the problem fixed.
- sokoloff 3y agoWhat do you want GP to do? Drive some buses to improve service? Star topologies coupled with infrequent service is often what makes public transit suck. It's why I can frequently leave my house later in my car than I'd have to arrive at my destination if coming by public transit. [0] There's no practical action I can take to "get the problem fixed", because it requires completely re-thinking how my local transit system works [likely to include the transit system spending many 100s of millions more per year on increased service] and, well, I've got a lot of other shit I can actually make progress on in my life rather than shaking a cane at the sky. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723197