7 ms·

How is this different from escaping problems through drug use?

wombat-man 3y ago
Psychedelics are so different from alcohol and narcotics, idk how to explain. Instead of being distracted or numbed from your problems, you may concentrate on them deeply and from new angles. But delusions can occur too. Ymmv.
freedomben 3y ago
Is it fair to infer that you have a value judgment on escaping problems through drug use, and think it's wrong or bad? If so, why?
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  Yes. Instead of escaping, let's solve the problem instead.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Why do you think the former precludes the latter? This seems to be like if someone comes to a doctor with an arrow stuck through him, someone saying "don't give him any pain killers, that's bad. Just take the arrow out so the problem is solved." You should obviously remove the arrow to correct the root cause, but you don't need to deny the patient pain killers in order to do so. Judging him morally or legally for wanting them doesn't make sense to me, short of claiming that an unprovable all powerful being who talks to man only through extremely unreliable and non reproducable channels has revealed to us that it's actually a sin.
    - gehwartzen 3y ago
      For me it depends on context; Pain exists for a purpose (i.e don't put wait on a broken leg otherwise you could extend healing time or make things worse) but if technology allows us to mitigate the potential problems (i.e fixing the bone and apply a cast will allow you to walk but not add strain) getting ride of pain in the meantime is probably a net good. If you have chronic pain of some sort and you use substances to mask that pain the root problem hasn't been addressed and still exists, you just won't be aware of it. If loosing awareness (which at its simplest is what painkillers do) of the ongoing problem is okey with you by all means take a substance to mask it, just don't be surprised when the original problem grows worse latter. Im okey with people masking or not masking. It should be a personal choice free of judgement. There are two guys and both are extremely depressed. One guy decides to seek out a therapist and has a meeting set for two weeks from now, the other guy decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day. The first guy is super depressed day to day but maybe the therapy will help... The next week they are on a plane together that crashes. Who made the better decision? Alternatively they don't die and instead live decades more. The first guy got to the root of his issues and lived a very happy life while the second eventually burned out and fell into even deeper depression for his remaining years. Who made the better decision? It is not fair for us to judge others on how they would like to treat their own bodies and minds. We don't know the totality of their path through life.
      - jonathanlb 3y ago
        Your point is taken, but it's not quite apples-to-apples. Therapy can be a deep healing process or a superficial fix, just as psychedelics like shrooms, LSD, or MDMA can be used daily by some (suggesting a shamanic lifestyle, in my opinion) or lead to profound insights in a single ayahuasca trip for others. It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions. But when comparing, we should ensure we're not misrepresenting the situation, whether intentionally or not.
        gehwartzen 3y ago
        Totally. Yeah the comparison was extreme and not meant to equate things. >"It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions." Very well said. I have had great success with psychedelics and other mind-altering substances but doesn't mean the next person will. I have yet to reap a great benefit from therapy but perhaps I just haven't found the right therapist either. To each their own.
      - socks 3y ago
        > decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've never taken LSD or shrooms... personally, taking them every day sounds nightmarishly exhausing (can't speak to MDMA). In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them.
        gehwartzen 3y ago
        I have taken LSD and Shrooms countless times. I take MDMA multiple times a month as well. I guess the point though, for that example, was more along the lines of: take whatever substance floats your boat as much as you desire to remain in a happy state. >"In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them." MDMA will defiantly mask your problems. As will heroin, GBH, and a number of others. But yeah LSD/shrooms not so much.
  - jamiek88 3y ago
    How do you solve stage 4 terminal cancer?
    - rpearl 3y ago
      The problem to be solved in this case is unnecessary distress and pain about one's inevitable death.
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        And how do you solve that
        dieselgate 3y ago
        One common solution is the hospice system. There's no silver bullet for any of this and it's a bit irksome see so many comments treating this like a "5 whys" exercise
        DontchaKnowit 3y ago
        And what is hospice but pumping someone full of morphine and ativan until they die?
        wholinator2 3y ago
        I can tell you from first hand experience that while the hospice system is certainly better than nothing and has extremely helpful and useful aspects, it's also extremely expensive where i live and the only "spiritual" assistance available is through one specific church, as far as i was aware. Sure, she had a moderately comfy bed and assistants that came to drain her bags and talk but she was still terrified and constantly drugged up to keep from freaking out. Any tool that has even a chance of helping retain sanity and humanity in such a trial is worth researching and communicating. These psychedelic drugs provide a service that simply cannot be achieved with any hospice system, anywhere in the world, ever. To actively advocate against the dying beings allowed to feel peace is inhuman, incomprehensible, and if i weren't certain it was pure naivety, evil. Psychedelics bring peace to the dying. What harm is that? That's what you're arguing against
  - omginternets 3y ago
    The problem here is acceptance of one’s mortality. What solution do you propose?
    - pizzafeelsright 3y ago
      Accept it fully.
      - omginternets 3y ago
        Quite. How do you propose to do that? And more importantly, how do you propose people who struggle to do this reach that acceptance?
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        The article talks about that and it seems the patient did accept the mortality fully: > It wasn't that he was filled with spiritual language like, "God's gonna save me." No, it was an acceptance for his condition and a reassurance to the people he loved most, that everything was OK, everything was as it should be, and they felt uplifted by that.
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        It seems you're nearing the message. How does one accept that fully? What do we do in the face of struggles with what may be the greatest struggle a human being ever faces? Could there be some technique that could help? What would that technique look like? Could it include the ingestion of a substance? If ingesting said substance along with guided meditation was vastly superior to all other techniques of death acceptance, would that be avoiding the problem with drugs? I think what you're not understanding is that taking the drug is the death acceptance technique. It is the thing that allows these people to quickly transition into peace. Do you have a better way? Could you please share that so all of our dying family members could finally have the simple solution you seem to be aware of?
        zozbot234 3y ago
        The drug is just exposing these subjects to the experience of living fully in the present moment. This is not something that can be done as "one weird trick", it requires true spiritual maturation-- and yet, people who haven't learned how to do this are literally dying every single day, whether they realize this or not. Whatever time is past for them, is in Death's hands already. They can choose to dwell on this, or just not bother and live life to the fullest as best they can.
  - barbs 3y ago
    That's ideal, but some people don't have the resources to do that.
temp0826 3y ago
Because it can be about facing the problem, with assistance of an altered state opened by the psychedelic. They are tools in the right context. (Disclaimer, working at ayahuasca retreat centers for the last 3 years so maybe biased as to what that context actually is :))
martopix 3y ago
Because the kind of drug use you're thinking of means addiction to a substance (one that typically numbs you or makes you feel unnaturally happy). Here he's discussing about people improving their condition after a single dose.
- pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
  His best example of a patient outcome is "patient came to believe in a Higher Power and felt at peace". Why are we being so credulous?
  - martopix 3y ago
    You should not be relying on an interview for evidence anyway. I am no expert and I have no opinion one way or another. But you shouldn't have preconceived opinions either. Look for scientific literature if you're interested.
specproc 3y ago
IMHO, it's perfectly fine, positive even to escape one's problems with drug use. You just can't do it every day.
- gehwartzen 3y ago
  If one could do you think that would be a problem?
  - specproc 3y ago
    I guess depends on the drug and the problem. Daily use of lots of substances, e.g. alcohol, isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself (though it really can be), but if it's to escape a problem then there's a serious risk there. As the above suggested, the problem also remains unresolved. So yeah, I don't think a person self-medicating on a daily basis is always problematic, but it's never worked out well for me, and it's not something I'd advise. My original point was really that getting out of one's head once in a while can give a fresh perspective on a problem.
  - JasserInicide 3y ago
    Depends on the drug. Caffeine? Probably the most used and least worst, could still cause sleep disruptions. Weed? Could be a problem. It's very easy to get mentally addicted to it and turn you into a bowl of mush, but if you're using it in medical doses I imagine it's less so. Microdosing LSD? Depends from person to person. I think using it too often isn't good for the heart. Alcohol? Absolutely a problem, even if the worst side effects take years to manifest.
    - pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
      Our bodies have the enzymes to process alcohol (as opposed to similar chemicals like isopropyl alcohol) since animals have been ingesting fermented foods since the beginning of time. These rhetorical attacks on Alcohol in an attempt to normalize the use of other chemicals without a similar biological history is asinine.
dbtc 3y ago
Confronting problems with medicinal assistance. Intention makes a difference.
0max 3y ago
Most folks associate taking psychedelics and hanging out in a living room, out in nature, being at a club, festival or warehouse. The difference here is that the dugs are being used in a directed mental health setting with process and procedure. This has roots going back to Native American spiritual and communal experiences like the ayahuscaeros of today. Joe Rogan's old content postulates that religion as we know it today was formed from psychedelic experiences. For example, the bush that burned in front of Moses was acacia and widely known in the levant to have psychedelic properties https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwV8_Oc0EuY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwV8_Oc0EuY
- dpig_ 3y ago
  Hate that Joe Rogan co-opted Terrence McKenna's huge body of work. And badly, at that.
- ddj231 3y ago
  That’s a strange way to explain away Moses’ encounter with God (what is written), seeing as according to the text it occurred many times without the burning bush present. See Exodus 33 on the tent of meeting. Reading in psychedelics into the text is eisegesis rather than exegesis (reading in the interpreters bias into the text rather than discerning the original author’s intent).
pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
Simple answer, It's not. Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance and resignation is pathological insanity. Don't let anyone tell you different.
- jerrygoyal 3y ago
  Let me fix it for you: Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance where you can't do anything is pathological sanity. Learn about dichotomy of control.
  - pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
    Calm and acceptance are two different things. It's self defeating to judge a situation as "I can't do anything about it I should calmly accept it." You can rarely if ever know with 100% certainty that you "can't do anything". And even then there are usually things you can do (or could have done). Your emotional state with respect to a external situation is irrelevant, be stoic by all means. But thats not what we're talking about here. We're talking about people using mind altering substances to alter their mind rather than face the situation and do what they can.
pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
Simple answer, It's not. Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance and resignation is pathological insanity. Don't let anyone tell you different. Especially not someone whose mind has been impaired by drugs. Drugs alter your subjective experience, how can you then understand whether your experience is true, and you are not simply operating with a defective brain. In these cases it is the latter. If it was natural to feel a certain way, and that feeling was advantageous to the survival of our species, then your brain would already be that way. Tamper with it at your own peril. For my part, I will wish to maintain my knowledge of reality and make my last minutes count without any false sense of acceptance of the utter evil that is death.
- unsubstantiated 3y ago
  lol
- wholinator2 3y ago
  Gosh, Poe's law is strong here. I was certain you were serious until that last sentence. But some people really do think like that so... are you being sarcastic?
  - pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
    It is a very unpopular opinion, I am well aware. Mind-altering drugs are bad. If you have used them, you may have damaged your mind permanently. You wouldn't even know. And you'd even go far as to tell me that it made you smarter/better/more enlightened in some way. Objectively though, it didn't.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  This is hilarious

Psychedelics are so different from alcohol and narcotics, idk how to explain. Instead of being distracted or numbed from your problems, you may concentrate on them deeply and from new angles. But delusions can occur too. Ymmv.

freedomben 3y ago

Is it fair to infer that you have a value judgment on escaping problems through drug use, and think it's wrong or bad? If so, why?

pizzafeelsright 3y ago
Yes. Instead of escaping, let's solve the problem instead.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Why do you think the former precludes the latter? This seems to be like if someone comes to a doctor with an arrow stuck through him, someone saying "don't give him any pain killers, that's bad. Just take the arrow out so the problem is solved." You should obviously remove the arrow to correct the root cause, but you don't need to deny the patient pain killers in order to do so. Judging him morally or legally for wanting them doesn't make sense to me, short of claiming that an unprovable all powerful being who talks to man only through extremely unreliable and non reproducable channels has revealed to us that it's actually a sin.
  - gehwartzen 3y ago
    For me it depends on context; Pain exists for a purpose (i.e don't put wait on a broken leg otherwise you could extend healing time or make things worse) but if technology allows us to mitigate the potential problems (i.e fixing the bone and apply a cast will allow you to walk but not add strain) getting ride of pain in the meantime is probably a net good. If you have chronic pain of some sort and you use substances to mask that pain the root problem hasn't been addressed and still exists, you just won't be aware of it. If loosing awareness (which at its simplest is what painkillers do) of the ongoing problem is okey with you by all means take a substance to mask it, just don't be surprised when the original problem grows worse latter. Im okey with people masking or not masking. It should be a personal choice free of judgement. There are two guys and both are extremely depressed. One guy decides to seek out a therapist and has a meeting set for two weeks from now, the other guy decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day. The first guy is super depressed day to day but maybe the therapy will help... The next week they are on a plane together that crashes. Who made the better decision? Alternatively they don't die and instead live decades more. The first guy got to the root of his issues and lived a very happy life while the second eventually burned out and fell into even deeper depression for his remaining years. Who made the better decision? It is not fair for us to judge others on how they would like to treat their own bodies and minds. We don't know the totality of their path through life.
    - jonathanlb 3y ago
      Your point is taken, but it's not quite apples-to-apples. Therapy can be a deep healing process or a superficial fix, just as psychedelics like shrooms, LSD, or MDMA can be used daily by some (suggesting a shamanic lifestyle, in my opinion) or lead to profound insights in a single ayahuasca trip for others. It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions. But when comparing, we should ensure we're not misrepresenting the situation, whether intentionally or not.
      - gehwartzen 3y ago
        Totally. Yeah the comparison was extreme and not meant to equate things. >"It's true we shouldn't judge what works for someone without knowing them well, and even then, we can only offer suggestions." Very well said. I have had great success with psychedelics and other mind-altering substances but doesn't mean the next person will. I have yet to reap a great benefit from therapy but perhaps I just haven't found the right therapist either. To each their own.
    - socks 3y ago
      > decides to take MDMA/LSD/shrooms (or whatever) every day. He feels amazing and is living his best life every day Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've never taken LSD or shrooms... personally, taking them every day sounds nightmarishly exhausing (can't speak to MDMA). In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them.
      - gehwartzen 3y ago
        I have taken LSD and Shrooms countless times. I take MDMA multiple times a month as well. I guess the point though, for that example, was more along the lines of: take whatever substance floats your boat as much as you desire to remain in a happy state. >"In my experience, these drugs don't mask your problems, they surface/amplify them." MDMA will defiantly mask your problems. As will heroin, GBH, and a number of others. But yeah LSD/shrooms not so much.
- jamiek88 3y ago
  How do you solve stage 4 terminal cancer?
  - rpearl 3y ago
    The problem to be solved in this case is unnecessary distress and pain about one's inevitable death.
    - wholinator2 3y ago
      And how do you solve that
      - dieselgate 3y ago
        One common solution is the hospice system. There's no silver bullet for any of this and it's a bit irksome see so many comments treating this like a "5 whys" exercise
        DontchaKnowit 3y ago
        And what is hospice but pumping someone full of morphine and ativan until they die?
        wholinator2 3y ago
        I can tell you from first hand experience that while the hospice system is certainly better than nothing and has extremely helpful and useful aspects, it's also extremely expensive where i live and the only "spiritual" assistance available is through one specific church, as far as i was aware. Sure, she had a moderately comfy bed and assistants that came to drain her bags and talk but she was still terrified and constantly drugged up to keep from freaking out. Any tool that has even a chance of helping retain sanity and humanity in such a trial is worth researching and communicating. These psychedelic drugs provide a service that simply cannot be achieved with any hospice system, anywhere in the world, ever. To actively advocate against the dying beings allowed to feel peace is inhuman, incomprehensible, and if i weren't certain it was pure naivety, evil. Psychedelics bring peace to the dying. What harm is that? That's what you're arguing against
- omginternets 3y ago
  The problem here is acceptance of one’s mortality. What solution do you propose?
  - pizzafeelsright 3y ago
    Accept it fully.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      Quite. How do you propose to do that? And more importantly, how do you propose people who struggle to do this reach that acceptance?
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      The article talks about that and it seems the patient did accept the mortality fully: > It wasn't that he was filled with spiritual language like, "God's gonna save me." No, it was an acceptance for his condition and a reassurance to the people he loved most, that everything was OK, everything was as it should be, and they felt uplifted by that.
    - wholinator2 3y ago
      It seems you're nearing the message. How does one accept that fully? What do we do in the face of struggles with what may be the greatest struggle a human being ever faces? Could there be some technique that could help? What would that technique look like? Could it include the ingestion of a substance? If ingesting said substance along with guided meditation was vastly superior to all other techniques of death acceptance, would that be avoiding the problem with drugs? I think what you're not understanding is that taking the drug is the death acceptance technique. It is the thing that allows these people to quickly transition into peace. Do you have a better way? Could you please share that so all of our dying family members could finally have the simple solution you seem to be aware of?
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        The drug is just exposing these subjects to the experience of living fully in the present moment. This is not something that can be done as "one weird trick", it requires true spiritual maturation-- and yet, people who haven't learned how to do this are literally dying every single day, whether they realize this or not. Whatever time is past for them, is in Death's hands already. They can choose to dwell on this, or just not bother and live life to the fullest as best they can.
- barbs 3y ago
  That's ideal, but some people don't have the resources to do that.

temp0826 3y ago

Because it can be about facing the problem, with assistance of an altered state opened by the psychedelic. They are tools in the right context. (Disclaimer, working at ayahuasca retreat centers for the last 3 years so maybe biased as to what that context actually is :))

martopix 3y ago

Because the kind of drug use you're thinking of means addiction to a substance (one that typically numbs you or makes you feel unnaturally happy). Here he's discussing about people improving their condition after a single dose.

pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
His best example of a patient outcome is "patient came to believe in a Higher Power and felt at peace". Why are we being so credulous?
- martopix 3y ago
  You should not be relying on an interview for evidence anyway. I am no expert and I have no opinion one way or another. But you shouldn't have preconceived opinions either. Look for scientific literature if you're interested.

specproc 3y ago

IMHO, it's perfectly fine, positive even to escape one's problems with drug use. You just can't do it every day.

gehwartzen 3y ago
If one could do you think that would be a problem?
- specproc 3y ago
  I guess depends on the drug and the problem. Daily use of lots of substances, e.g. alcohol, isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself (though it really can be), but if it's to escape a problem then there's a serious risk there. As the above suggested, the problem also remains unresolved. So yeah, I don't think a person self-medicating on a daily basis is always problematic, but it's never worked out well for me, and it's not something I'd advise. My original point was really that getting out of one's head once in a while can give a fresh perspective on a problem.
- JasserInicide 3y ago
  Depends on the drug. Caffeine? Probably the most used and least worst, could still cause sleep disruptions. Weed? Could be a problem. It's very easy to get mentally addicted to it and turn you into a bowl of mush, but if you're using it in medical doses I imagine it's less so. Microdosing LSD? Depends from person to person. I think using it too often isn't good for the heart. Alcohol? Absolutely a problem, even if the worst side effects take years to manifest.
  - pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
    Our bodies have the enzymes to process alcohol (as opposed to similar chemicals like isopropyl alcohol) since animals have been ingesting fermented foods since the beginning of time. These rhetorical attacks on Alcohol in an attempt to normalize the use of other chemicals without a similar biological history is asinine.

dbtc 3y ago

Confronting problems with medicinal assistance. Intention makes a difference.

0max 3y ago

Most folks associate taking psychedelics and hanging out in a living room, out in nature, being at a club, festival or warehouse. The difference here is that the dugs are being used in a directed mental health setting with process and procedure. This has roots going back to Native American spiritual and communal experiences like the ayahuscaeros of today. Joe Rogan's old content postulates that religion as we know it today was formed from psychedelic experiences. For example, the bush that burned in front of Moses was acacia and widely known in the levant to have psychedelic properties https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwV8_Oc0EuY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwV8_Oc0EuY

dpig_ 3y ago
Hate that Joe Rogan co-opted Terrence McKenna's huge body of work. And badly, at that.
ddj231 3y ago
That’s a strange way to explain away Moses’ encounter with God (what is written), seeing as according to the text it occurred many times without the burning bush present. See Exodus 33 on the tent of meeting. Reading in psychedelics into the text is eisegesis rather than exegesis (reading in the interpreters bias into the text rather than discerning the original author’s intent).

pacificmaelstrm 3y ago

Simple answer, It's not. Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance and resignation is pathological insanity. Don't let anyone tell you different.

jerrygoyal 3y ago
Let me fix it for you: Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance where you can't do anything is pathological sanity. Learn about dichotomy of control.
- pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
  Calm and acceptance are two different things. It's self defeating to judge a situation as "I can't do anything about it I should calmly accept it." You can rarely if ever know with 100% certainty that you "can't do anything". And even then there are usually things you can do (or could have done). Your emotional state with respect to a external situation is irrelevant, be stoic by all means. But thats not what we're talking about here. We're talking about people using mind altering substances to alter their mind rather than face the situation and do what they can.

pacificmaelstrm 3y ago

Simple answer, It's not. Approaching a horrible situation with calm acceptance and resignation is pathological insanity. Don't let anyone tell you different. Especially not someone whose mind has been impaired by drugs. Drugs alter your subjective experience, how can you then understand whether your experience is true, and you are not simply operating with a defective brain. In these cases it is the latter. If it was natural to feel a certain way, and that feeling was advantageous to the survival of our species, then your brain would already be that way. Tamper with it at your own peril. For my part, I will wish to maintain my knowledge of reality and make my last minutes count without any false sense of acceptance of the utter evil that is death.

unsubstantiated 3y ago
lol
wholinator2 3y ago
Gosh, Poe's law is strong here. I was certain you were serious until that last sentence. But some people really do think like that so... are you being sarcastic?
- pacificmaelstrm 3y ago
  It is a very unpopular opinion, I am well aware. Mind-altering drugs are bad. If you have used them, you may have damaged your mind permanently. You wouldn't even know. And you'd even go far as to tell me that it made you smarter/better/more enlightened in some way. Objectively though, it didn't.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
This is hilarious