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The better question is why do they think more efficiency will lead to lower use rather than higher consumption? I know, if the price stays the same per unit of

The better question is why do they think more efficiency will lead to lower use rather than higher consumption? I know, if the price stays the same per unit of energy and i stop spendjng so much because of efficiency gains, i have a ton of other stuff i would love to do that consumes energy so my decrease in usage would be tiny. What will decrease my usage is price increases, which can only go so far as taxes to capture proposed externalities before i revolt and elect someone who will axe the tax (as is about to happen in canada).

bobthepanda 3y ago
Energy use per capita has already been falling for two decades in the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/04/10/176801719/two-centuries-of-energy-in-america-in-four-graphs https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/04/10/176801719/two-...
- snapplebobapple 3y ago
  Thats not really what that chart looks like to me, or at least the effect is very moderate. The big drops correspond to economic shocks. Even if i ignore that the chart is topping at roughly 350 in 1975 and bottoming around 310 in what i assume is 2023, which makes it what? A 0.22% annual decrease?
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  You are making the assumption there won’t be some new technology that gobbles up significant energy. At one point an American’s electrical consumption might have been home lighting and a radio. Then it jumped by an order of magnitude with the refrigerator and air conditioner.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Most of the examples I can think of with that would not be localized. For example, if we need massively more computing for an AI breakthrough, there's nothing requiring that to be localized. Similarly for production of any commodity that can be shipped.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Energy costs are so high in the modern age relative to how dirt cheap it was pre-OPEC crisis, that any sort of significant energy consumption would be a barrier to significant adoption. Your average Joe cannot afford to mine Bitcoin, for example. If anything we have mostly seen massive improvements in energy efficiency in the last two decades, with appliances, the switch to LED lighting from incandescent, heat pumps vs other heating/air technology, etc. What new technologies have shown up get quickly innovated in the name of energy efficiency.
passwordoops 3y ago
As an aside re: Canadian politics. New Governments don't get elected, old ones are voted out of office. The shelf life is generally 10-15 years and this government has gotten stale. It just so happens the party in position to replace them plans to remove the carbon tax (which hasn't been implemented in any meaningful way) as part of their platform
- snapplebobapple 3y ago
  Thats true but a misinterpretation of the data in my opinion. Old ones are voted out because their policies mismatch the current pain points, which is definitely happening here. Libs were elected on a luxury beliefs platform that isn't compatible with the current state of the economy/interest rate regime/inflation. Enough people have finally realized this to grow disillusioned and change voting patterns.that the libs appear to be a bunch of kleptos and/or incompetent and/or corrupt is speeding up that realization. If the libs had kept the klepto stuff to a less obvious level and adapted the binding parts of their luxury beliefs platform they probably would still be polling a majority and could have kept this going for quite a while longer.
rsynnott 3y ago
> I know, if the price stays the same per unit of energy and i stop spendjng so much because of efficiency gains, i have a ton of other stuff i would love to do that consumes energy so my decrease in usage would be tiny. Do you, though? What? I'm not sure how typical this is. Like, if you replace your creaky old gas central heating with proper insulation and a ground to air heat pump, you're going to be saving a _lot_ of energy if it's a big house. What would you use this extra energy 'budget' on?

bobthepanda 3y ago

Energy use per capita has already been falling for two decades in the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/04/10/176801719/two-centuries-of-energy-in-america-in-four-graphs https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/04/10/176801719/two-...

snapplebobapple 3y ago
Thats not really what that chart looks like to me, or at least the effect is very moderate. The big drops correspond to economic shocks. Even if i ignore that the chart is topping at roughly 350 in 1975 and bottoming around 310 in what i assume is 2023, which makes it what? A 0.22% annual decrease?
kjkjadksj 3y ago
You are making the assumption there won’t be some new technology that gobbles up significant energy. At one point an American’s electrical consumption might have been home lighting and a radio. Then it jumped by an order of magnitude with the refrigerator and air conditioner.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Most of the examples I can think of with that would not be localized. For example, if we need massively more computing for an AI breakthrough, there's nothing requiring that to be localized. Similarly for production of any commodity that can be shipped.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Energy costs are so high in the modern age relative to how dirt cheap it was pre-OPEC crisis, that any sort of significant energy consumption would be a barrier to significant adoption. Your average Joe cannot afford to mine Bitcoin, for example. If anything we have mostly seen massive improvements in energy efficiency in the last two decades, with appliances, the switch to LED lighting from incandescent, heat pumps vs other heating/air technology, etc. What new technologies have shown up get quickly innovated in the name of energy efficiency.

passwordoops 3y ago

As an aside re: Canadian politics. New Governments don't get elected, old ones are voted out of office. The shelf life is generally 10-15 years and this government has gotten stale. It just so happens the party in position to replace them plans to remove the carbon tax (which hasn't been implemented in any meaningful way) as part of their platform

snapplebobapple 3y ago
Thats true but a misinterpretation of the data in my opinion. Old ones are voted out because their policies mismatch the current pain points, which is definitely happening here. Libs were elected on a luxury beliefs platform that isn't compatible with the current state of the economy/interest rate regime/inflation. Enough people have finally realized this to grow disillusioned and change voting patterns.that the libs appear to be a bunch of kleptos and/or incompetent and/or corrupt is speeding up that realization. If the libs had kept the klepto stuff to a less obvious level and adapted the binding parts of their luxury beliefs platform they probably would still be polling a majority and could have kept this going for quite a while longer.

rsynnott 3y ago

> I know, if the price stays the same per unit of energy and i stop spendjng so much because of efficiency gains, i have a ton of other stuff i would love to do that consumes energy so my decrease in usage would be tiny. Do you, though? What? I'm not sure how typical this is. Like, if you replace your creaky old gas central heating with proper insulation and a ground to air heat pump, you're going to be saving a _lot_ of energy if it's a big house. What would you use this extra energy 'budget' on?