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I have a hard time buying the argument against changing defaults. I do get that the Vim editing model is hard, but that professional developers refuse using a

by lawn 3y ago

I have a hard time buying the argument against changing defaults. I do get that the Vim editing model is hard, but that professional developers refuse using a tool because you have to change some defaults and customize it a little is too much. It's really not that hard or time consuming to setup, for more gains than many of the courses or experiences people have put themselves through. And it's not like it's a "vscode vs Vim" thing, I see the same argument inside the Vim community too where people refuse plugins because it's too much work, or even switch to Vim-like editors that don't have a plugin system as if it was a positive thing. What gives? I'm sure it's not as easy as everyone just being lazy.

eviks 3y ago
if you deny reality (it's hard and time consuming), you won't buy its outcome
- lawn 3y ago
  Is it? Using a Neovim setup like LazyVim is really fast and easy. Even something like kickstart.nvim is quick and easy. Maybe it's the perseption that it's hard and time consuming that's the problem?
  - eviks 3y ago
    Yes, it is. First, how would you know that LazyVim is the fast and easy one? Second, it's not fast and easy even with LazyVim, let's start with the basics like keymap: map({ "n", "x" }, "j", "v:count == 0 ? 'gj' : 'j'", { expr = true, silent = true }) map("n", "<C-h>", "<C-w>h", { desc = "Go to left window", remap = true }) To understand this (and to adjust to your liking) you kind of have to learn the language you're not going to use ('gj' or <C-w>h) instead of using something easily readable like ["go","window","left"], or instead of actually pressing C-w to insert <C-w> like many (mostly GUI) apps allow Then the time consuming part: it doesn't make it easy to resolve conlficts which inevitably arise when doing many rebinds. Also, it'd be very time consuming to learn and reference that unused binding language Then the help is rather verbose and not intuitive (see my parent comment) (don't remember if help uses default keybinds or actual ones Then it relies on a very barebones and not very popular language (though miles better than vimscript) Then there are a gazillion of other things which make the perception reflect the reality pretty well
rgoulter 3y ago
It's got to do with (broadly) accessibility / enthusiasm. Enthusiasts are familiar with a lot more, know the domain, and so are able to navigate the intricacies. -- There's an xkcd comic which points out that you're probably under-estimating what it takes to be familiar with this stuff. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Familiarity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Fam... -- And while it's nice to be enthusiastic about stuff, not everyone's going to have full enthusiasm for everything they do. In terms of accessibility: Having "bad defaults out of the box" just doesn't make sense compared to "having good defaults out of the box". If it's very unusual, or unintuitive to use, that's just added friction to get someone to learn. (And if fewer people adopting a tool leads to a smaller community). There's plenty of stuff which isn't so hard if you know where to look.. whereas, without knowing where to look, it's confusing to navigate. There's a communal cost to having fragmented/bespoke setups; if everyone's using pretty much the same thing, then anyone can help anyone out. -- Someone familiar with the intricacies will be able to understand the differences, but a novice might not know which bespoke thing would be best to copy.
- lawn 3y ago
  Huh, this makes a lot of sense. I need to sort my thoughts and reconsider... The xkcd hits home hard.
alhadrad 3y ago
The issue I consistently run into with my customized setup is it is hard to replicate. Deploy it to a new system always results in hours of headache. Many neovim plugins rely on node js which is a dumpster fire. Any time I update anything a plugin invariably breaks. I have to spend an hour or two troubleshooting to get my editor up and rolling again. This is a major pain in the ass.

by lawn 3y ago

eviks 3y ago

if you deny reality (it's hard and time consuming), you won't buy its outcome

lawn 3y ago
Is it? Using a Neovim setup like LazyVim is really fast and easy. Even something like kickstart.nvim is quick and easy. Maybe it's the perseption that it's hard and time consuming that's the problem?
- eviks 3y ago
  Yes, it is. First, how would you know that LazyVim is the fast and easy one? Second, it's not fast and easy even with LazyVim, let's start with the basics like keymap: map({ "n", "x" }, "j", "v:count == 0 ? 'gj' : 'j'", { expr = true, silent = true }) map("n", "<C-h>", "<C-w>h", { desc = "Go to left window", remap = true }) To understand this (and to adjust to your liking) you kind of have to learn the language you're not going to use ('gj' or <C-w>h) instead of using something easily readable like ["go","window","left"], or instead of actually pressing C-w to insert <C-w> like many (mostly GUI) apps allow Then the time consuming part: it doesn't make it easy to resolve conlficts which inevitably arise when doing many rebinds. Also, it'd be very time consuming to learn and reference that unused binding language Then the help is rather verbose and not intuitive (see my parent comment) (don't remember if help uses default keybinds or actual ones Then it relies on a very barebones and not very popular language (though miles better than vimscript) Then there are a gazillion of other things which make the perception reflect the reality pretty well

rgoulter 3y ago

It's got to do with (broadly) accessibility / enthusiasm. Enthusiasts are familiar with a lot more, know the domain, and so are able to navigate the intricacies. -- There's an xkcd comic which points out that you're probably under-estimating what it takes to be familiar with this stuff. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Familiarity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Fam... -- And while it's nice to be enthusiastic about stuff, not everyone's going to have full enthusiasm for everything they do. In terms of accessibility: Having "bad defaults out of the box" just doesn't make sense compared to "having good defaults out of the box". If it's very unusual, or unintuitive to use, that's just added friction to get someone to learn. (And if fewer people adopting a tool leads to a smaller community). There's plenty of stuff which isn't so hard if you know where to look.. whereas, without knowing where to look, it's confusing to navigate. There's a communal cost to having fragmented/bespoke setups; if everyone's using pretty much the same thing, then anyone can help anyone out. -- Someone familiar with the intricacies will be able to understand the differences, but a novice might not know which bespoke thing would be best to copy.

lawn 3y ago
Huh, this makes a lot of sense. I need to sort my thoughts and reconsider... The xkcd hits home hard.

alhadrad 3y ago

The issue I consistently run into with my customized setup is it is hard to replicate. Deploy it to a new system always results in hours of headache. Many neovim plugins rely on node js which is a dumpster fire. Any time I update anything a plugin invariably breaks. I have to spend an hour or two troubleshooting to get my editor up and rolling again. This is a major pain in the ass.