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> 1) The idea that these 128 lives are different from any other 128 lives in, say, Central Africa is precisely a result of propaganda. Arguably the beneficial k

> 1) The idea that these 128 lives are different from any other 128 lives in, say, Central Africa is precisely a result of propaganda. Arguably the beneficial kind. The exact opposite is true. Every organism on this planet instinctively cares about itself and its family/close relations more than the abstract concept of its species – if it even has such an abstract concept to begin with. Universalism is a viewpoint that has spread, or propagated, however.

roenxi 3y ago
The concept of Citizen is the abstract concept, it has only existed for about 2,500 years and even in the modern form for less time than that. A US citizen could literally have been born anywhere. If you want 128 US citizens who in fact are from Central Africa; they exist [0]. Their genes could not have detected they were supposed to get angry about those 128 people as opposed to 128 random Europeans. A lot of US people probably had more in common with the Germans than the ship's passengers, given the US's large contingent of ex-Germans at the time. The idea that some people have a magic label that makes them important is, 100%, due to propaganda. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it is unreasonable, but it takes a lot of social effort expended to maintain the label. [0] Although I will acknowledge a lot of hand-waving given the state of US citizenship law around WWI, but I think the point about propaganda is solid even if that is accounted for properly. The US is not defined by people with a long shared history, or close family ties. And if it is, at the time we're talking the roots of those things led back to Europe.
- keiferski 3y ago
  I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make. The people in the US are linked to each other by history, culture, language, and a million other things that they don’t have to a random group of people halfway around the globe. I don’t know what is so complicated or difficult to understand about this.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    The idea that these 128 lives are different from any other 128 lives in, say, Central Africa is precisely a result of propaganda. Arguably the beneficial kind. You'll find that you haven't actually addressed that point. Unless you are suggesting that the US was so inbred that all of them were close family members and relations of the people onboard the ship [0]. There isn't any way to know that you're in the same group as those randoms without some serious social legwork explaining that the group exists to everyone, slowly, multiple times, over an extended period. The technical term for that explaining is propaganda. It isn't a truth of natural law, it is very much a social construct. [0] And, even if they were, there'd still be a lot of connection to other European countries like Germany by similar logic.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      People tend to care more about people that share the same language, culture, history, and geographical proximity. They tend to care less about people they have no such connection with or are not aware of at all. Again, I really, truly, have absolutely no clue as to why this is so difficult to understand. People can feel a connection to others that they share characteristics with, without it being a deliberate, top-down propagandistic effort. And as I said in my original comment, the opposite thing (universalism) is actually what must be propagandized [1] in order to spread, as tribalism is, for lack of a better word, the "default." 1. I'm not using the word in a negative sense here, as I generally think it's a good thing.
      - roenxi 3y ago
        > language, culture, history, and geographical proximity English, the language of England? European culture, with a heavy and detectable German tradition? Population with a history of maybe a century or so in America and millennia of habitation mainly on the Eurasian landmass + Africa? It probably took a lot of propaganda to forge an independent US identity out of that and make it care enough about a small number of deaths to take it personally instead of just interpreting it as more-or-less-the-same-people squabbling violently. The only thing your argument that it occurred naturally has going for it is geography - and the US is damn huge so I don't think that is persuasive. I mean, we all love the US sense of togetherness. But it took (and takes) a lot of work to make it happen and it is purposefully nurtured and backed up by a lot of organised propaganda.

roenxi 3y ago

The concept of Citizen is the abstract concept, it has only existed for about 2,500 years and even in the modern form for less time than that. A US citizen could literally have been born anywhere. If you want 128 US citizens who in fact are from Central Africa; they exist [0]. Their genes could not have detected they were supposed to get angry about those 128 people as opposed to 128 random Europeans. A lot of US people probably had more in common with the Germans than the ship's passengers, given the US's large contingent of ex-Germans at the time. The idea that some people have a magic label that makes them important is, 100%, due to propaganda. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it is unreasonable, but it takes a lot of social effort expended to maintain the label. [0] Although I will acknowledge a lot of hand-waving given the state of US citizenship law around WWI, but I think the point about propaganda is solid even if that is accounted for properly. The US is not defined by people with a long shared history, or close family ties. And if it is, at the time we're talking the roots of those things led back to Europe.

keiferski 3y ago
I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make. The people in the US are linked to each other by history, culture, language, and a million other things that they don’t have to a random group of people halfway around the globe. I don’t know what is so complicated or difficult to understand about this.
- roenxi 3y ago
  The idea that these 128 lives are different from any other 128 lives in, say, Central Africa is precisely a result of propaganda. Arguably the beneficial kind. You'll find that you haven't actually addressed that point. Unless you are suggesting that the US was so inbred that all of them were close family members and relations of the people onboard the ship [0]. There isn't any way to know that you're in the same group as those randoms without some serious social legwork explaining that the group exists to everyone, slowly, multiple times, over an extended period. The technical term for that explaining is propaganda. It isn't a truth of natural law, it is very much a social construct. [0] And, even if they were, there'd still be a lot of connection to other European countries like Germany by similar logic.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    People tend to care more about people that share the same language, culture, history, and geographical proximity. They tend to care less about people they have no such connection with or are not aware of at all. Again, I really, truly, have absolutely no clue as to why this is so difficult to understand. People can feel a connection to others that they share characteristics with, without it being a deliberate, top-down propagandistic effort. And as I said in my original comment, the opposite thing (universalism) is actually what must be propagandized [1] in order to spread, as tribalism is, for lack of a better word, the "default." 1. I'm not using the word in a negative sense here, as I generally think it's a good thing.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      > language, culture, history, and geographical proximity English, the language of England? European culture, with a heavy and detectable German tradition? Population with a history of maybe a century or so in America and millennia of habitation mainly on the Eurasian landmass + Africa? It probably took a lot of propaganda to forge an independent US identity out of that and make it care enough about a small number of deaths to take it personally instead of just interpreting it as more-or-less-the-same-people squabbling violently. The only thing your argument that it occurred naturally has going for it is geography - and the US is damn huge so I don't think that is persuasive. I mean, we all love the US sense of togetherness. But it took (and takes) a lot of work to make it happen and it is purposefully nurtured and backed up by a lot of organised propaganda.