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> Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument If you're going to make a claim about the quality of an argument, please back it

by nirvana 15y ago

> Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument If you're going to make a claim about the quality of an argument, please back it up. Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. I'm not making an emotional, nor an unreasonable claim. I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and I've never, not once, seen Apple act without integrity. This is including situations where Apple has made errors (generally they fixed quickly) or where Apple might have been in the right (because the situation was grey) or I was in the wrong (and they explained clearly how and why.) At the same time I've done business with a variety of other companies, and watched them fail to honor warranties, ship crappy products, ship broken products, and refuse to deal with it, and engage in all kinds of practices that lack integrity. > makes me highly value their genius marketing. Right, it couldn't be the decades of good products and positive experiences I've had with Apple, it must just be their marketing that is so genius that it's caused me to believe this "emotional and unreasonable" thing. Yeah, no way my actual experiences with them could be what did it-- it was the commercials. (Unless you think that acting with integrity in all spheres is a form of marketing, in which case, you have stumbled upon the real genius of the marketing. Yep, believe it or not, treating people with respect, showing integrity in your business dealings, and delivering good products, and supporting them-- this is all very good marketing.) >"Learning how their concise UX from products to slogan can convince reasonable people to act emotionally is a must for every entrepreneur." I made an argument, a fairly lengthy one, and I explained my reasoning. Further, I just went into even more detail about my reasoning. You have made a very snide response, near as I can tell, because you have a very emotional reaction to Apple. I don't know if you're projecting or not, but I think your characterizations-- especially since you don't bother to defend them-- are inappropriate.

ktizo 15y ago
The quality of your argument is absolutely appalling. You claim that Apple has the most integrity of any company you have ever known, when the longest serving CEO was well known for a very wobbly relationship with the truth, in his "reality distortion field". You also claim that any critics of Apple are driven by hatred and lack integrity. To my mind, your entire argument lacks integrity and you are guilty of grievous insults to those who would disagree with you, even before anyone had a chance to do so.
untog 15y ago
I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and I've never, not once, seen Apple act without integrity. And they are all customer-facing interactions. Not that I'm suggesting the two companies are the same, but I'm reasonably sure that I could set fire to something I bought at Walmart and still return it for a full refund. Despite their crappy products, I've always got relatively good customer service at Walmart. Meanwhile, they absolutely hammer their suppliers to within an inch of their lives. In fact, one of the main reasons Walmart is able to not care about refunds is because of their margins with suppliers. So, I'm not suggesting that Apple does hammer their suppliers- I have no evidence on hand to suggest so. But to assume that they don't because you, as a customer giving them money, has had a fantastic experience, is strange logic indeed.
vibrunazo 15y ago
> Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. Please don't think that. Wasn't my intention. I've followed your posts, you're a very bright person, and I love reading what you have to say. I agree with you that Apple is being target both because it's a big brand and because there's political motivation. I also do agree with you they make great products, I never implied otherwise. I only think "integrity" only because "Word would get out" between poor Chinese workers who barely have an alternative is a little bit pushing it. I didn't mean to offend you, nor apple, when I said their marketing is genius at making their users emotional about their products. I was being honest, if a smart and reasonable person like you can get emotional with their brand. That doesn't mean that you're a sheep nor that they're dishonest. It only means that you're human and they're genius at doing they're job. And we as entrepreneurs should recognize that and try to understand how they're so good at branding.
- WiseWeasel 15y ago
  That's going to go straight to his head.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

by nirvana 15y ago

ktizo 15y ago

The quality of your argument is absolutely appalling. You claim that Apple has the most integrity of any company you have ever known, when the longest serving CEO was well known for a very wobbly relationship with the truth, in his "reality distortion field". You also claim that any critics of Apple are driven by hatred and lack integrity. To my mind, your entire argument lacks integrity and you are guilty of grievous insults to those who would disagree with you, even before anyone had a chance to do so.

untog 15y ago

I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and I've never, not once, seen Apple act without integrity. And they are all customer-facing interactions. Not that I'm suggesting the two companies are the same, but I'm reasonably sure that I could set fire to something I bought at Walmart and still return it for a full refund. Despite their crappy products, I've always got relatively good customer service at Walmart. Meanwhile, they absolutely hammer their suppliers to within an inch of their lives. In fact, one of the main reasons Walmart is able to not care about refunds is because of their margins with suppliers. So, I'm not suggesting that Apple does hammer their suppliers- I have no evidence on hand to suggest so. But to assume that they don't because you, as a customer giving them money, has had a fantastic experience, is strange logic indeed.

vibrunazo 15y ago

> Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. Please don't think that. Wasn't my intention. I've followed your posts, you're a very bright person, and I love reading what you have to say. I agree with you that Apple is being target both because it's a big brand and because there's political motivation. I also do agree with you they make great products, I never implied otherwise. I only think "integrity" only because "Word would get out" between poor Chinese workers who barely have an alternative is a little bit pushing it. I didn't mean to offend you, nor apple, when I said their marketing is genius at making their users emotional about their products. I was being honest, if a smart and reasonable person like you can get emotional with their brand. That doesn't mean that you're a sheep nor that they're dishonest. It only means that you're human and they're genius at doing they're job. And we as entrepreneurs should recognize that and try to understand how they're so good at branding.

WiseWeasel 15y ago
That's going to go straight to his head.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]