3 ms·

I don't understand how a virus that evolved to jump species in the last five years could already have this massive swiss army knife of different ways to fuck us

by causi 3y ago

I don't understand how a virus that evolved to jump species in the last five years could already have this massive swiss army knife of different ways to fuck us up. It's like every couple of months we discover some wild new thing it does. They could come out tomorrow and say it makes you go color-blind and I wouldn't even be surprised at this point.

defrost 3y ago
It's had a very long time to evolve a toolkit of methods optimal to the bodies of mammals. We share a lot of cellular similarities with other mammals and these techniques are very much a kind of base level lowest common denominator cellular hacking.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
It's a lab leak though isn't it?
- AnthonBerg 3y ago
  It doesn’t actually matter. The things SARS-CoV-2 can do already existed inside the world of bat viruses and bat immunology. What happened is that it found an “adapter” to fit to human cells. It could have been a lab leak, it could have been pure chance in a biologically risk-pressurized environment, and it doesn’t matter. It messes us up. It is a threat to the health and wellbeing of people. It’s surprisingly easy to stop transmission, and surprisingly difficult to work with after infection. There’s a lot of clear scientific knowledge on actions we can take. The academic papers on this mostly lay unread. There is a waiting time from clear scientific results in molecular biology to medical and engineering applications, and this waiting time is far, far too long. Not as in “move fast and break things”, but rather “doctors should read”.
  - questinthrow 3y ago
    Why doesn't it matter that it's a lab leak?
    - stravant 3y ago
      Because labs can't build a virus from the ground up. They'd be working from an existing virus and only making the smallest of adjustments.
      - ObscureScience 3y ago
        Is anyone even suggesting a genetically modified virus?
        fullspectrumdev 3y ago
        Yes, mostly fucking idiots.
        ObscureScience 3y ago
        Ok, I'm not excluding the possibility of a lab leak, but I would expect it to be just badly handled regular microbiological/pathological research rather than genetic engineering.
    - vasdae 3y ago
      Back when it was hard to prove that it was a lab leak, the theory was censored and we were called crazy. Now that it is obvious that it was a lab leak, we are told it doesn't really matter.
      - pts_ 3y ago
        It's still contested isn't it?
    - baq 3y ago
      It’s there out in the wild, knowing it escaped from a lab is literally irrelevant to treatment
      - mandmandam 3y ago
  - gls2ro 3y ago
    > It’s surprisingly easy to stop transmission I am afraid this is not true. It is not easy to stop transmission. I dont have on my phone links to studies but I remember that all mechanism we have except quarantine are working within a probability range. With all measures that we took for this virus it is now probably in all communities around the glob.
    - AnthonBerg 3y ago
      I understand. I swear, however: It is surprisingly easy, it is literally surprising to learn how easy it is to stop transmission. It’s essentially this: People breathe it out. Don’t breathe it in. We have filtration materials that strip it out of the air. It has been easy to avoid infection. I have found it easy. Mechanically speaking. Socially, it has been difficult. Because of severe failures of judgement made by people in positions of responsibility in public health organizations. Because of obviously incorrect guidance. I am aware that this is an extraordinarily tall claim. I ask to be forgiven, ask for your consideration, promise that I am in good faith and under a moral obligation to point to this. Here’s one reference for it out of many available: What Were the Historical Reasons for the Resistance to Recognizing Airborne Transmission during the COVID-19 Pandemic?, submitted 2021, published 2022 – https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3904176 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3904176 — edit: There are also recent studies which show that immunization does confer blocking protection, if the inhaled dose is lowered. Apologies; Am out of time, there’s a child to attend to.
throwaway8451 3y ago
Biology has the tendency to repurpose existing mechanisms for other things. If an illness affects one of these processes, it might affect others as well.
AnthonBerg 3y ago
Indeed. The reason is that comes from bats. Bat immunology is wild. As I understand it, coming from bats to humans, a virus is basically coming from thousands of years in the future – of an evolutionary arms race. Bats have evolved much more complexity in parts of their immune systems than us, and viruses along with them. They have extremely rapid metabolism and live packed together in ideal condition for viral transmission. Flight metabolism in bats is absolutely bonkers. Intense energy generation and the requisite damage control. Of DNA. And other stuff. Bats handle viral infections quite differently than we do and can for example tolerate chronic infections with viruses that can and would kill humans. The arms race is so advanced that for them it’s no longer a question of exterminaton but successful containment. As species and individuals of that species, we do not handle chronic infection well. Note that bats have evolved these mechanisms through selection by survival, naturally accompanied with non-selection through death. It was known and we were warned that bat viruses would mess us up. It was a known hazard and we were warned to watch for it and not let this happen due do these reasons. Bat virome on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_virome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_virome Novel Insights Into Immune Systems of Bats, 2020: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00026/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0002... Decoding bat immunity: the need for a coordinated research approach, 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00523-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00523-0 Revising the paradigm: Are bats really pathogen reservoirs or do they possess an efficient immune system?, 2022: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9379578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9379578/ Bats are “blind” to the deadly effects of viruses, editorial / paper highlight, 2018: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.aau2259 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.aau2259 Of bats and men: Immunomodulatory treatment options for COVID-19 guided by the immunopathology of SARS-CoV-2 infection, 2021: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.abd0205 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.abd0205 Long-Read Sequencing Reveals Rapid Evolution of Immunity- and Cancer-Related Genes in Bats, 2023: https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evad148 https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evad148 Antiviral Immune Responses of Bats: A Review, 2012: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1863-2378.2012.01528.x https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1863-2378.2012.01528.x Comparative Analysis of Bat Genomes Provides Insight into the Evolution of Flight and Immunity, 2012: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230835 https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230835 Immunological Control of Viral Infections in Bats and the Emergence of Viruses Highly Pathogenic to Humans, 2017: https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2017.01098 https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2017.01098
groestl 3y ago
> could already have this massive swiss army knife of different ways to fuck us up. It's exactly _because_ it just jumped, that it fucks us up. Given time, milder strains develop which are more adjusted to humans and adapt in the right places to cause less havoc.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Ubfortunately this is not true. Viruses evolve to survive and reproduce more, like anything subject to evolution. That can create less virulent strains and it can equally create more virulent strains. A virus has no reason to adjust to our body in ways that cause less harm to us, unless doing so increases its chance of reproduction.
  - groestl 3y ago
    It's complex, agreed, but in general, increasing the chance of survival of the host correlates with better reproductive capabilities of the virus. This works both ways. After a particularly virulent strain has hit a population, those humans that survive are more likely to be adjusted to the strain, so it causes less problems for them.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by causi 3y ago

defrost 3y ago

It's had a very long time to evolve a toolkit of methods optimal to the bodies of mammals. We share a lot of cellular similarities with other mammals and these techniques are very much a kind of base level lowest common denominator cellular hacking.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

It's a lab leak though isn't it?

AnthonBerg 3y ago
It doesn’t actually matter. The things SARS-CoV-2 can do already existed inside the world of bat viruses and bat immunology. What happened is that it found an “adapter” to fit to human cells. It could have been a lab leak, it could have been pure chance in a biologically risk-pressurized environment, and it doesn’t matter. It messes us up. It is a threat to the health and wellbeing of people. It’s surprisingly easy to stop transmission, and surprisingly difficult to work with after infection. There’s a lot of clear scientific knowledge on actions we can take. The academic papers on this mostly lay unread. There is a waiting time from clear scientific results in molecular biology to medical and engineering applications, and this waiting time is far, far too long. Not as in “move fast and break things”, but rather “doctors should read”.
- questinthrow 3y ago
  Why doesn't it matter that it's a lab leak?
  - stravant 3y ago
    Because labs can't build a virus from the ground up. They'd be working from an existing virus and only making the smallest of adjustments.
    - ObscureScience 3y ago
      Is anyone even suggesting a genetically modified virus?
      - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
        Yes, mostly fucking idiots.
        ObscureScience 3y ago
        Ok, I'm not excluding the possibility of a lab leak, but I would expect it to be just badly handled regular microbiological/pathological research rather than genetic engineering.
  - vasdae 3y ago
    Back when it was hard to prove that it was a lab leak, the theory was censored and we were called crazy. Now that it is obvious that it was a lab leak, we are told it doesn't really matter.
    - pts_ 3y ago
      It's still contested isn't it?
  - baq 3y ago
    It’s there out in the wild, knowing it escaped from a lab is literally irrelevant to treatment
    - mandmandam 3y ago
- gls2ro 3y ago
  > It’s surprisingly easy to stop transmission I am afraid this is not true. It is not easy to stop transmission. I dont have on my phone links to studies but I remember that all mechanism we have except quarantine are working within a probability range. With all measures that we took for this virus it is now probably in all communities around the glob.
  - AnthonBerg 3y ago
    I understand. I swear, however: It is surprisingly easy, it is literally surprising to learn how easy it is to stop transmission. It’s essentially this: People breathe it out. Don’t breathe it in. We have filtration materials that strip it out of the air. It has been easy to avoid infection. I have found it easy. Mechanically speaking. Socially, it has been difficult. Because of severe failures of judgement made by people in positions of responsibility in public health organizations. Because of obviously incorrect guidance. I am aware that this is an extraordinarily tall claim. I ask to be forgiven, ask for your consideration, promise that I am in good faith and under a moral obligation to point to this. Here’s one reference for it out of many available: What Were the Historical Reasons for the Resistance to Recognizing Airborne Transmission during the COVID-19 Pandemic?, submitted 2021, published 2022 – https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3904176 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3904176 — edit: There are also recent studies which show that immunization does confer blocking protection, if the inhaled dose is lowered. Apologies; Am out of time, there’s a child to attend to.

throwaway8451 3y ago

Biology has the tendency to repurpose existing mechanisms for other things. If an illness affects one of these processes, it might affect others as well.

AnthonBerg 3y ago

Indeed. The reason is that comes from bats. Bat immunology is wild. As I understand it, coming from bats to humans, a virus is basically coming from thousands of years in the future – of an evolutionary arms race. Bats have evolved much more complexity in parts of their immune systems than us, and viruses along with them. They have extremely rapid metabolism and live packed together in ideal condition for viral transmission. Flight metabolism in bats is absolutely bonkers. Intense energy generation and the requisite damage control. Of DNA. And other stuff. Bats handle viral infections quite differently than we do and can for example tolerate chronic infections with viruses that can and would kill humans. The arms race is so advanced that for them it’s no longer a question of exterminaton but successful containment. As species and individuals of that species, we do not handle chronic infection well. Note that bats have evolved these mechanisms through selection by survival, naturally accompanied with non-selection through death. It was known and we were warned that bat viruses would mess us up. It was a known hazard and we were warned to watch for it and not let this happen due do these reasons. Bat virome on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_virome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_virome Novel Insights Into Immune Systems of Bats, 2020: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00026/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0002... Decoding bat immunity: the need for a coordinated research approach, 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00523-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00523-0 Revising the paradigm: Are bats really pathogen reservoirs or do they possess an efficient immune system?, 2022: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9379578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9379578/ Bats are “blind” to the deadly effects of viruses, editorial / paper highlight, 2018: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.aau2259 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.aau2259 Of bats and men: Immunomodulatory treatment options for COVID-19 guided by the immunopathology of SARS-CoV-2 infection, 2021: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.abd0205 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciimmunol.abd0205 Long-Read Sequencing Reveals Rapid Evolution of Immunity- and Cancer-Related Genes in Bats, 2023: https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evad148 https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evad148 Antiviral Immune Responses of Bats: A Review, 2012: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1863-2378.2012.01528.x https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1863-2378.2012.01528.x Comparative Analysis of Bat Genomes Provides Insight into the Evolution of Flight and Immunity, 2012: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230835 https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230835 Immunological Control of Viral Infections in Bats and the Emergence of Viruses Highly Pathogenic to Humans, 2017: https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2017.01098 https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2017.01098

groestl 3y ago

> could already have this massive swiss army knife of different ways to fuck us up. It's exactly _because_ it just jumped, that it fucks us up. Given time, milder strains develop which are more adjusted to humans and adapt in the right places to cause less havoc.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Ubfortunately this is not true. Viruses evolve to survive and reproduce more, like anything subject to evolution. That can create less virulent strains and it can equally create more virulent strains. A virus has no reason to adjust to our body in ways that cause less harm to us, unless doing so increases its chance of reproduction.
- groestl 3y ago
  It's complex, agreed, but in general, increasing the chance of survival of the host correlates with better reproductive capabilities of the virus. This works both ways. After a particularly virulent strain has hit a population, those humans that survive are more likely to be adjusted to the strain, so it causes less problems for them.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]