4 ms·

> I guess if a firm was going to be successful, and a merger wasn't an option then it would eventually IPO instead, no? No, most businesses don't grow revenue

by gms 3y ago

> I guess if a firm was going to be successful, and a merger wasn't an option then it would eventually IPO instead, no? No, most businesses don't grow revenue fast enough to be IPO-worthy (or, as with WhatsApp and Instagram when they were acquired, don't make enough revenue to even be viable standalone businesses). But even putting all that aside, what about the personal freedom argument? If a founder wants to sell their company because they're tired of running it (this is a job that comes with immense personal sacrifice), or wants cash to take care of family, or sick parents, etc, should the government have the right to force them to keep it running? The societal implications of the above feel absurd.

todd-davies 3y ago
I think it's a false dichotomy to say that businesses either succeed by IPO/acquisition or fail. Can't a startup "just" be profitable within its niche, serve its customers well and make money while being privately held? It's not clear to me that we should live in a world where every middling startup is eventually acquired or has an IPO. Sure, some startups are destined for exponential growth and huge success, but not all. Likewise, if a business isn't profitable (and can't get funding to tide it over until it is profitable) then maybe it's not a good business. That's catastrophic for the firm, but on a social level, it essentially survival of the fittest. With regards to personal freedom, we need to think more broadly than just founders. There's also the personal freedom of citizens to consider too; when powerful firms control large parts of the economy they essentially operate as private governments which can also impinge on people's personal freedom (see the below quote). Should a startup founder be allowed to sell a startup to monopolist/oligopolist if that contributes to more economic concentration? Maybe each individual merger isn't that harmful, but taken together their cumulative effect is. Besides, Khan isn't trying to block all mergers. She is focusing on mergers with already dominant firms; perhaps it's possible for the founder to sell a firm which isn't in a dominant position. > ...power that controls the economy should be in the hands of elected representatives of the people, not in the hands of an industrial oligarchy. Industrial power should be decentralised. It should be scattered into many hands so that the fortunates of the people will not be dependent on the whim or caprice, the political prejudices, the emotional stability of a few self-appointed men. The fact that they are not vicious men but respectable and social minded is irrelevant. That is the philosophy and the command of the Sherman Act. It is founded on a theory of hostility to the concentration in private hands of power so great that only a government of the people should have it. [1] [1] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/334/495/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/334/495/
- gms 3y ago
  How do you define ‘power’? Absent government regulation that can result in pathologies, a corporation only exists if customers are happy with its services. If Amazon makes me unhappy I’ll just take my money to alternatives. No corporation forces me to do anything. They offer services and I’m free to buy or not from whomever.
  - todd-davies 3y ago
    Power is notoriously hard to define. In antitrust "market power" is usually defined as either the ability to set prices above marginal cost, or an ability to act free from competitive constraint (i.e. if the firm takes some action, it doesn't worry about other firms responding and taking away some of its business). On the point of consumers switching away from bad firms, you say that > a corporation only exists if customers are happy with its services I'm not so sure. There are many firms that exist despite consumers being unhappy with the products/services provided. The notion that consumers can take their business elsewhere is shouldn't be taken for granted. There are many times where that's not possible; maybe alternative firms don't exist, or they're not convenient, or they have products you like (even) less. Maybe you're "locked in" to the existing firm even though it's starting to provide a worse service, through a contract or because of some path dependency. Thus, we can't take it for granted that firms and consumers have equal bargaining power and that consumers can simply stop purchasing at any time.
    - gms 3y ago
      I’ve never seen alternative firms not exist unless, like I said earlier, government regulations exist to make it harder for new market entrants to pop up (see eg investment banking firms or local cable companies in some regions). In a free society there are always a set of people eager to take advantage of existing vendor weakness. I commend your exceeding politeness but it seems like this position is based on feelings of consumer harm and missionary zeal rather than rigour (including a lack of true acknowledgement of second order effects of this regulation - all regulation has costs). Yet here I am as a consumer speaking for myself otherwise. Maybe this why Lina keeps losing her cases. WhatsApp can’t figure how to make money -> Facebook buys them and can afford to keep them free -> consumers continue using them instead of losing access to a wealth-generating service (the third world is full of small businesses that run on WhatsApp and Instagram). Still not clear to me why preventing this from happening is good.

by gms 3y ago

todd-davies 3y ago

I think it's a false dichotomy to say that businesses either succeed by IPO/acquisition or fail. Can't a startup "just" be profitable within its niche, serve its customers well and make money while being privately held? It's not clear to me that we should live in a world where every middling startup is eventually acquired or has an IPO. Sure, some startups are destined for exponential growth and huge success, but not all. Likewise, if a business isn't profitable (and can't get funding to tide it over until it is profitable) then maybe it's not a good business. That's catastrophic for the firm, but on a social level, it essentially survival of the fittest. With regards to personal freedom, we need to think more broadly than just founders. There's also the personal freedom of citizens to consider too; when powerful firms control large parts of the economy they essentially operate as private governments which can also impinge on people's personal freedom (see the below quote). Should a startup founder be allowed to sell a startup to monopolist/oligopolist if that contributes to more economic concentration? Maybe each individual merger isn't that harmful, but taken together their cumulative effect is. Besides, Khan isn't trying to block all mergers. She is focusing on mergers with already dominant firms; perhaps it's possible for the founder to sell a firm which isn't in a dominant position. > ...power that controls the economy should be in the hands of elected representatives of the people, not in the hands of an industrial oligarchy. Industrial power should be decentralised. It should be scattered into many hands so that the fortunates of the people will not be dependent on the whim or caprice, the political prejudices, the emotional stability of a few self-appointed men. The fact that they are not vicious men but respectable and social minded is irrelevant. That is the philosophy and the command of the Sherman Act. It is founded on a theory of hostility to the concentration in private hands of power so great that only a government of the people should have it. [1] [1] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/334/495/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/334/495/

gms 3y ago
How do you define ‘power’? Absent government regulation that can result in pathologies, a corporation only exists if customers are happy with its services. If Amazon makes me unhappy I’ll just take my money to alternatives. No corporation forces me to do anything. They offer services and I’m free to buy or not from whomever.
- todd-davies 3y ago
  Power is notoriously hard to define. In antitrust "market power" is usually defined as either the ability to set prices above marginal cost, or an ability to act free from competitive constraint (i.e. if the firm takes some action, it doesn't worry about other firms responding and taking away some of its business). On the point of consumers switching away from bad firms, you say that > a corporation only exists if customers are happy with its services I'm not so sure. There are many firms that exist despite consumers being unhappy with the products/services provided. The notion that consumers can take their business elsewhere is shouldn't be taken for granted. There are many times where that's not possible; maybe alternative firms don't exist, or they're not convenient, or they have products you like (even) less. Maybe you're "locked in" to the existing firm even though it's starting to provide a worse service, through a contract or because of some path dependency. Thus, we can't take it for granted that firms and consumers have equal bargaining power and that consumers can simply stop purchasing at any time.
  - gms 3y ago
    I’ve never seen alternative firms not exist unless, like I said earlier, government regulations exist to make it harder for new market entrants to pop up (see eg investment banking firms or local cable companies in some regions). In a free society there are always a set of people eager to take advantage of existing vendor weakness. I commend your exceeding politeness but it seems like this position is based on feelings of consumer harm and missionary zeal rather than rigour (including a lack of true acknowledgement of second order effects of this regulation - all regulation has costs). Yet here I am as a consumer speaking for myself otherwise. Maybe this why Lina keeps losing her cases. WhatsApp can’t figure how to make money -> Facebook buys them and can afford to keep them free -> consumers continue using them instead of losing access to a wealth-generating service (the third world is full of small businesses that run on WhatsApp and Instagram). Still not clear to me why preventing this from happening is good.