10 ms·
SARS-CoV-2 Infection Affects Energy Stores in the Body, Causing Organ Failure
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- anon84873628 3y ago>Using nasal swabs and autopsy tissues from affected patients and animal models, researchers found that the virus blocks specific genes that use oxygen to create ATP, forcing the body to deplete finite energy reserves in the body. More details from the paper: >In nasopharyngeal samples with declining viral titers, the virus blocked the transcription of a subset of nuclear DNA (nDNA)–encoded mitochondrial OXPHOS genes, induced the expression of microRNA 2392, activated HIF-1α to induce glycolysis, and activated host immune defenses including the integrated stress response. More info about the OXPHOS systems: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443909000921 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092544390...
- clumsysmurf 3y agoCreatine aids in ATP synthesis, wonder if it could help?
- darkclouds 3y ago[dead]
- ck2 3y agoPlenty of researchers and patients have of course thought of creatine with no benefit. Ribose also has little to no benefit. Rather it's a "horse to water" kind of problem where the mitochondria themselves are damaged in such a way that they refuse to uptake and manufacture energy properly no matter how many resources are present. And all fuel types are broken, not just glucose and glycogen but fat too. What I personally don't get after 3+ years of this is why all the broken cells have not been replaced by the body, flagged for death because of malfunction and new ones put into place even if not optimized by exercise, etc. Something is fooling the body to keep making bad copies of bad cells because it doesn't think anything is wrong. This is all the same with me-cfs and also similar to athletes cut down by overtraining syndrome for years if not the rest of their lives.
- codeTired 3y agoWe are going to unlock a lot of treatments if we can figure out how to fix mitochondrial issues. I had a reaction to a drug. There is now research pointing to possible mitochondrial issues. I have some symptoms on/off. Nerves are often affected as they are very energy dependent. The insane thing is that if I get plenty of sun, like on a summer vacation my symptoms nearly disappear. A lot of people are having good results with red light therapy and it’s something I plan on trying. I wonder if covid long haulers would also benefit from getting plenty of sun.
- ck2 3y agoPlenty of long-covid and years before that me-cfs have of course thought of sun and vitamin D The issue is far deeper and more complex than any offhand supplement or "biohack" anyone can casually ponder. It's a core cell programming issue that is not easily resolved if even possible at all with the limit of current technology. Many times it appears as an "energy issue" with many related diseases. Many long-covid patients also seem to spontaneously developed a new kind of diabetes which is definitely related to cell energy uptake (or rather lack of it). Some also develop sciatica, raynaulds and other nerve damage issues also tied to cell energy. And I should clarify there is more than one kind of long-covid. Some people self-resolve in months, often giving credit the last thing they took or did but really it would have happened anyway. But in contrast here is the very careful, very detailed journal of Brandon Gilles who was a very smart person, a hacker like us, who despite all that died from covid/long-covid. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X3dNPgEuQ2j8x7w8OqLEDP7l2z8_SSgMN-XdM8Uk58Q/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X3dNPgEuQ2j8x7w8OqLEDP7l...
- codeTired 3y agoDo you know the timeline of his symptoms and death? The symptoms are very similar to what flouroquinolone causes, but from my experience death is extremely rare. I am in touch with physicians and many people and we discovered many things that people are trying that are mentioned in the blog. TNF-a inhibitors, anti-histamines and diets. Plus, many of the supplements listed. I much appreciate all the work on that blog and will give it a good read at some point.
- canucker2016 3y agoSmall study found that creatine helped reduce long covid symptoms. see https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.3597 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.3597
- TurningCanadian 3y ago[flagged]
- karim79 3y agoAs a layman, I find this extremely enlightening. Even now, (anecdotally) a lot/most people describe it as primarily a respiratory disease. From the OP article: > "Using nasal swabs and autopsy tissues from affected patients and animal models, researchers found that the virus blocks specific genes that use oxygen to create ATP, forcing the body to deplete finite energy reserves in the body. Without an energy source, cells throughout the body begin to starve, with the cells powering the brain and the heart suffering the most." This is the first thing I've read which actually makes bloody sense. A 2020 study linked below: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7443557/#:~:text=Of%20the%2084%20COVID%2D19,73.3%25%2C%20respectively)%2C%20circulatory https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7443557/#:~:tex... From the aforementioned 2020 study: "Of the 84 COVID-19 cases with known direct cause of death, the top 3 common direct causes of death were multiple organ failure (67.9%), circulatory failure (20.2%), and respiratory failure (11.9%), and were similar (P = 0.50) for males and females: multiple organ failure (64.8% vs 73.3%, respectively), circulatory failure (24.1% vs 13.4%, respectively), and respiratory failure (11.1% vs 13.3%, respectively)."
- irdc 3y ago>> "Using nasal swabs and autopsy tissues from affected patients and animal models, researchers found that the virus blocks specific genes that use oxygen to create ATP (…) Without an energy source, cells throughout the body begin to starve, with the cells powering the brain and the heart suffering the most." There is some weird reasoning going on here, as neuronal cells are famous for being powered anaerobically using glucose and/or ketones.
- garganzol 3y ago> neuronal cells are famous for being powered anaerobically Neurons are among the most energy-demanding cells in the body, they die the first without oxygen. Then come muscles (including heart) and liver. This means that all those cells are mostly aerobic, and only slightly anaerobic. It is true that all human body cells have an anaerobic metabolic pathway as well, but it is inefficient and cannot satisfy the energy demands for a human body to stay alive for too long without the oxygen supply.
- dgreensp 3y agoWell that’s concerning
- pieter_mj 3y agoAnyone a link to the full text? I thought all sars-cov-2 research was freely available?
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoSadly it looks like it is not on scihub.
- pieter_mj 3y agoIndeed, I looked in all archives before asking the question.(scihub, anna's archive, libgen)
- pieter_mj 3y agoThis link was probably already available when I posted my request : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373017477_Core_mitochondrial_genes_are_down-regulated_during_SARS-CoV-2_infection_of_rodent_and_human_hosts https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373017477_Core_mito... PDF : https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark-Emmett/publication/373017477_Core_mitochondrial_genes_are_down-regulated_during_SARS-CoV-2_infection_of_rodent_and_human_hosts/links/64db579bad846e288293e4c3/Core-mitochondrial-genes-are-down-regulated-during-SARS-CoV-2-infection-of-rodent-and-human-hosts.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark-Emmett/publication...
- deegles 3y agoWish I could use this to convince my family to mask.
- moffkalast 3y agoWell maybe a practical example [0] would be more convincing. It's really infuriating that most people still seem to discount even the existence of long covid. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vydgkCCXbTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vydgkCCXbTA
- zanfr 3y agothey will deny its covid related even on their death bed.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- superhumanuser 3y agoConsumer masks don't work. And N95s are way too problematic to worth their use in general settings. In fact, prolonged use leads to many issues including cognitive impairment especially in children.
- belltaco 3y ago3M Aura N95 masks are effective and inexpensive.
- steaktartaar_ 3y agoN95s are fine for prolonged use. Study after study has shown that wearing a mask has a negligible impact on blood saturation, heart rate or cognitive performance. (eg https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-99100-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-99100-7)
- t0bia_s 3y ago"Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza/SARS‐CoV‐2 compared to not wearing masks (RR 1.01, 95% CI 0.72 to 1.42; 6 trials, 13,919 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence)." https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
- vario 3y agowhat the artic doesnt meantion is long covi from which strain? it would make sense, logically, to assume that long cov from delt is not the same as omic.
- Animats 3y agoNot much difference. "U. Minn. Study: Regardless of variant, half of long-COVID patients fail to improve after 18 months "[1] [1] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/study-regardless-variant-half-long-covid-patients-fail-improve-after-18-months https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/study-regardless-variant...
- vario 3y agoI wodner why my original comment got downvoted though. What was wrong with wondering about that??
- fghorow 3y agoA great follow-up study would be to estimate any effects on this from Paxlovid treatment on cutting down the viral load. Naively (from a layperson) it make sense that leaving some cells uninfected via a lower load would help ameliorate the problems described in the OP. It is conceivable that even the "rebound" effect from Paxlovid is "simply" an indicator of where in the exponential growth of cell infection the treatment begins. To me, at least, that makes all kinds of mathematical sense.
- Gibbon1 3y agoThis might be what you're looking for > It is notable, then, that all of the strategies effective in reducing the risk of long COVID might affect SARS-CoV-2 viral load during early infection, directly or indirectly. We therefore hypothesize that long COVID can be predicted by the peak and duration of the SARS-CoV-2 viral load—the area under the viral load curve during initial infection. https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/10/ofad466/7264811 https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/10/ofad466/7264811
- fghorow 3y agoYes indeed. Thanks for the pointer!
- causi 3y agoI don't understand how a virus that evolved to jump species in the last five years could already have this massive swiss army knife of different ways to fuck us up. It's like every couple of months we discover some wild new thing it does. They could come out tomorrow and say it makes you go color-blind and I wouldn't even be surprised at this point.
- defrost 3y agoIt's had a very long time to evolve a toolkit of methods optimal to the bodies of mammals. We share a lot of cellular similarities with other mammals and these techniques are very much a kind of base level lowest common denominator cellular hacking.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoIt's a lab leak though isn't it?
- AnthonBerg 3y agoIt doesn’t actually matter. The things SARS-CoV-2 can do already existed inside the world of bat viruses and bat immunology. What happened is that it found an “adapter” to fit to human cells. It could have been a lab leak, it could have been pure chance in a biologically risk-pressurized environment, and it doesn’t matter. It messes us up. It is a threat to the health and wellbeing of people. It’s surprisingly easy to stop transmission, and surprisingly difficult to work with after infection. There’s a lot of clear scientific knowledge on actions we can take. The academic papers on this mostly lay unread. There is a waiting time from clear scientific results in molecular biology to medical and engineering applications, and this waiting time is far, far too long. Not as in “move fast and break things”, but rather “doctors should read”.
- questinthrow 3y agoWhy doesn't it matter that it's a lab leak?
- fulafel 3y agoSource notice: Not UN affiliated despite the UN sounding domain name. From a quick layman glance, the publishing journal, Science Translational Medicine, does not have a very high impact factor but isn't bottom barrel either. (https://journalsearches.com/journal.php?title=Science%20Translational%20Medicine https://journalsearches.com/journal.php?title=Science%20Tran... (For anyone wondering, expansion of the term in the journal title: "Translational medicine (often called translational science, of which it is a form) develops the clinical practice applications of the basic science aspects of the biomedical sciences; that is, it translates basic science to applied science in medical practice.")
- sterlind 3y agoScience Translational Medicine is a very reputable journal. Science is up there with Nature, and STM specifically is the home of Derek Lowe's blog.
- fulafel 3y agoI believe you that it's legit, but it seems pretty far by IF from Nature (IF 8 according to wikipedia, vs 65 for Nature, lower than eg Medical Journal of Australia or Mayo Clinic Proceedings).
- bagels 3y agoI don't know why you jumped to un, but the first three letters are unc, and the site has a University of North Carolina Chapel Hill banner.
- sokoloff 3y agoI wonder what percentage of people would have greater trust in something coming from UNC than UN anyway. I bet even plenty of Duke alumni would.
- mpreda 3y agoI guess "translational" refers to the relation between genes and proteins.
- GordonS 3y agoHmm, some of this sounds similar to how CFS/ME mechanisms are believed to work.
- sireat 3y ago"Diet, exercise, natural compounds, or a combination of the three, may be able to stimulate mitochondrial function, but whether or not they are effective for patients with long COVID is yet to be known." What are those natural compounds? Vitamin D, and so on? This is not a fun read when you've just got Covid for the 2nd time. This as I was about to get vaccinated for the 4th time... The worst is that official doctor's advice is just to lay low, drink plenty of liquids and hope for the best. PS Oh I am allowed to lower the temperature by ibuprofen or paracetomol but I figure I'd rather stay around 37.5 to help the fight than lower it. Then again, maybe the temperature in acute phase does not matter and I am suffering needlessly?
- _heimdall 3y agoSo doctors ended up treating this like the common cold after all? That's honestly very frustrating to me personally. So much was spent to push the argument that Covid shouldn't be viewed as a common cold because its so much worse for you. That was part of the justification for closing business and schools, limiting travel, and preventing families from visiting sick or elderly relatives in hospitals and nursing homes. Now its all back to normal and Covid is just another cold worthy of rest, hydration, and ibuprofen for a fever.
- yieldcrv 3y agohaven’t seen this take in a while over summer I met a woman that had just come out of her prepper bunker all she could talk about was her discontent with big pharma and guided plans from billionaires, although not a fan of vaccines she was a fan of the personal responsibility approach of staying away from all of us enlightened and possibly infected (or vaccinated) rubes, that’s always a choice! too bad she was running out of money 3 years later and had to get a job. I met her at her job and asked her out successfully, our date was the same day where I learned this is all she reads about on the internet it was so funny, didnt expect to see that in 2023
- _heimdall 3y agoHah, yeah that's an interesting one for sure. Sounds effectively like the plot of a Brendan Fraser, just replace Covid with nuclear fallout. Can't say that I consider myself a prepper, and definitely not to the extent of having a bomb shelter stocked with years of rations. I can see the view I raised here being more common in the prepped space, though to me it feels more like a rational retrospective (I'm biased obviously). So much effort was put into making it clear that Covid wasn't similar to a common cold, to the point of labeling such a comparison and the person making it as dangerous. If that really is how medical specialists treat it now, it seems worthwhile for us (or at least those who made such claims) to revisit how they got it that wrong. Maybe it comes down to simply learning more since then, which is totally reasonable but also something that could have been expected and led to a more reasoned and less certain message earlier on.
- Madmallard 3y agoCan someone far more involved in the research than me comment on the validity of this research and how this compares to other viruses and infections? As far as I understand, basically all infections cause a degree of impairment to energy production. Oxidative stress, which is induced directly and indirectly during infection, has a downregulating effect on energy production as to not result in the body potentiating the negative consequences of runaway stress to the cells. This is due to energy production directly producing reactive oxygen species as a natural waste product.
- theknocker 3y ago[dead]
- t0bia_s 3y agoArticle ignore how vaccination affect "long covid". Like most of articles about this topic. Even though we have plenty studies that monitor vaccine side effect injuries. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37999349#38006436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37999349#38006436