4 ms·

Hmm? I saw it exactly the opposite. A lot of people in the autonomous driving industry are driven by exactly what Vogt describes (little girl in the stroller et

Hmm? I saw it exactly the opposite. A lot of people in the autonomous driving industry are driven by exactly what Vogt describes (little girl in the stroller etc.). See also Chris Urmson of Waymo fame's TED talk, he talks about a similar motivation[1]. Its a fallacy everyone conveniently ignores. The woman the Cruise car ran over was actually first hit by a human driver who is still at-large, not a peep about him. The press kinda just accepts this as the "cost of doing business". The way I see it, Vogt sincerely believes autonomous cars will make things safer from the #2 killer of Children under 19 (outside of guns) by a wide margin [2] and therefore accelerated the rollout past what was safe. I see no evidence otherwise. [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_urmson_how_a_driverless_car_sees_the_road?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_urmson_how_a_driverless_car_... [2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

sroussey 3y ago
We have become so desensitized to human deaths due to cars even though those numbers are higher than violent acts of terrorism et al that actually kill far fewer people each year. Many people have to be killed AT ONCE for it to be news worthy these days.
oldgradstudent 3y ago
In the US on average, there's a fatality every ~85 million miles driven, and that's an average that includes motorcyclists without helmets, old unsafe unmaintained cars, the worst roads, and adverse weather conditions. Cruise barely drove a few million miles with new modern cars, good weather, the ability to choose optimal roads and weather, and yet it already severely injured a pedestrian. We can argue about Cruise hitting the pedestrian, but reportedly, the major injuries were caused by Cruise, after reaching a complete stop, deciding it has to clear the road, and dragging the screaming pedestrian and ending with the axle over the pedestrian.
- pj_mukh 3y ago
  I'm not sure why you're comparing fatality miles vs no-fatality-accident-that-cruise-didn't-cause miles (i.e. we have no idea how safe Cruise would be if there were no human drivers on the road) That's not even close to a fair comparison. We just have to admit that there isn't a fair comparison yet and everyone's just got an axe to grind.
  - oldgradstudent 3y ago
    > I'm not sure why you're comparing fatality miles vs no-fatality-accident-that-cruise-didn't-cause miles Because it's not that everyone ignores road fatalities, it's just that cruise hasn't driven (in terms of miles amd conditions) nowhere near to what might result in a fatality with human drivers. Even then, in an incident they've not initiated, they've unnecessariliy made an existing bad situation far far worse. > (i.e. we have no idea how safe Cruise would be if there were no human drivers on the road) Self-driving cars have to exist in a world with human drivers, pedestrians, and the rest of reality. No one cares how well Cruise does in a sterile environment. They should not only not cause incidents, they should also not make existing incidents far worse because of terrible decisions.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - pj_mukh 3y ago
      “ They should not only not cause incidents, they should also not make existing incidents far worse because of terrible decisions.” Just FYI, it made this terrible decision because people were mad at cruise for stopping in the middle of the road to decide if it was safe to proceed. They were asked to change that behavior and pull over and they did, this time just dragging a human along. So yes let’s set these absurdly high standards, while we leave children to fend for themselves against human drivers that have met non-existent standards on a continual basis. But then let’s actually leave the autonomous cars on the road to test if they’re actually meeting them. As you agreed, some statistic they figure out in a sterile or simulation environment doesn’t actually matter. Let’s put them back on the road..
wolverine876 3y ago
> A lot of people in the autonomous driving industry are driven by exactly what Vogt describes (little girl in the stroller etc.). See also Chris Urmson of Waymo fame's TED talk, he talks about a similar motivation[1]. To me, that's evidence that it's performative. First, it's a talking point; it looks, smells, walks and talks just like typical corporate/industry framing and messaging, with even a 'think of the children!' line, and the redirection (from the safety of autonomous cars, the topic, to whatabout something else). Second, its repetition by Urmson is further evidence - that's how talking points work. Third, the public's reptition of it, in surprising detail, such as in your comment, is also what we'd expect. Finally, throw in some tears, 'I get emotional' lines, etc. (per the NYT article), and I don't know how it can be missed. Could it all be legit? Anything is possible - including fully autonomous cars!
- pj_mukh 3y ago
  Whether the corporate honchos are "sincere" or not is wholly irrelevant to me (and frankly unknowable). "Think of the children" is usually a vapid misdirect, except of course in the objective measurable leading cause of death right? So in terms of issues where "something must be done", this should be objectively pretty high. Either we drastically reduce the number of cars on the road and restructure American society around public transit (I wholly support this), or we take the humans out of the equation by making things autonomous. Or some combination of both. I dont care if this happens under some grand socialist program if we so hate corporations/industries, but it needs to happen yesterday. The rest is just status quo protection which is unacceptable.
- kelipso 3y ago
  The culture of Silicon Valley dictates that any performative charade be taken completely sincerely. It is just what it is. People like Holmes and SBF naturally arising from this from the obvious incentives are just the cost of doing business is this cultural environment.

sroussey 3y ago

We have become so desensitized to human deaths due to cars even though those numbers are higher than violent acts of terrorism et al that actually kill far fewer people each year. Many people have to be killed AT ONCE for it to be news worthy these days.

oldgradstudent 3y ago

In the US on average, there's a fatality every ~85 million miles driven, and that's an average that includes motorcyclists without helmets, old unsafe unmaintained cars, the worst roads, and adverse weather conditions. Cruise barely drove a few million miles with new modern cars, good weather, the ability to choose optimal roads and weather, and yet it already severely injured a pedestrian. We can argue about Cruise hitting the pedestrian, but reportedly, the major injuries were caused by Cruise, after reaching a complete stop, deciding it has to clear the road, and dragging the screaming pedestrian and ending with the axle over the pedestrian.

pj_mukh 3y ago
I'm not sure why you're comparing fatality miles vs no-fatality-accident-that-cruise-didn't-cause miles (i.e. we have no idea how safe Cruise would be if there were no human drivers on the road) That's not even close to a fair comparison. We just have to admit that there isn't a fair comparison yet and everyone's just got an axe to grind.
- oldgradstudent 3y ago
  > I'm not sure why you're comparing fatality miles vs no-fatality-accident-that-cruise-didn't-cause miles Because it's not that everyone ignores road fatalities, it's just that cruise hasn't driven (in terms of miles amd conditions) nowhere near to what might result in a fatality with human drivers. Even then, in an incident they've not initiated, they've unnecessariliy made an existing bad situation far far worse. > (i.e. we have no idea how safe Cruise would be if there were no human drivers on the road) Self-driving cars have to exist in a world with human drivers, pedestrians, and the rest of reality. No one cares how well Cruise does in a sterile environment. They should not only not cause incidents, they should also not make existing incidents far worse because of terrible decisions.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - pj_mukh 3y ago
    “ They should not only not cause incidents, they should also not make existing incidents far worse because of terrible decisions.” Just FYI, it made this terrible decision because people were mad at cruise for stopping in the middle of the road to decide if it was safe to proceed. They were asked to change that behavior and pull over and they did, this time just dragging a human along. So yes let’s set these absurdly high standards, while we leave children to fend for themselves against human drivers that have met non-existent standards on a continual basis. But then let’s actually leave the autonomous cars on the road to test if they’re actually meeting them. As you agreed, some statistic they figure out in a sterile or simulation environment doesn’t actually matter. Let’s put them back on the road..

wolverine876 3y ago

> A lot of people in the autonomous driving industry are driven by exactly what Vogt describes (little girl in the stroller etc.). See also Chris Urmson of Waymo fame's TED talk, he talks about a similar motivation[1]. To me, that's evidence that it's performative. First, it's a talking point; it looks, smells, walks and talks just like typical corporate/industry framing and messaging, with even a 'think of the children!' line, and the redirection (from the safety of autonomous cars, the topic, to whatabout something else). Second, its repetition by Urmson is further evidence - that's how talking points work. Third, the public's reptition of it, in surprising detail, such as in your comment, is also what we'd expect. Finally, throw in some tears, 'I get emotional' lines, etc. (per the NYT article), and I don't know how it can be missed. Could it all be legit? Anything is possible - including fully autonomous cars!

pj_mukh 3y ago
Whether the corporate honchos are "sincere" or not is wholly irrelevant to me (and frankly unknowable). "Think of the children" is usually a vapid misdirect, except of course in the objective measurable leading cause of death right? So in terms of issues where "something must be done", this should be objectively pretty high. Either we drastically reduce the number of cars on the road and restructure American society around public transit (I wholly support this), or we take the humans out of the equation by making things autonomous. Or some combination of both. I dont care if this happens under some grand socialist program if we so hate corporations/industries, but it needs to happen yesterday. The rest is just status quo protection which is unacceptable.
kelipso 3y ago
The culture of Silicon Valley dictates that any performative charade be taken completely sincerely. It is just what it is. People like Holmes and SBF naturally arising from this from the obvious incentives are just the cost of doing business is this cultural environment.