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It's not an allegation. It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models. There are no autonomous cars currently regardless of what is wri

It's not an allegation. It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models. There are no autonomous cars currently regardless of what is written on the marketing brochures. In various "emergency" situations the cars phone home and ask a human operator to take over the controls.

throwaway5959 3y ago
The latency on that has to be massive.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  Why? UAVs are piloted remotely, video games are played remotely with sub-100ms latency. Getting a remote driver connected might a while, but afterwards it seems like a mostly solved (in practice) problem.
  - notahacker 3y ago
    UAVs don't have to deal with traffic (the thought of driving a vehicle with the latency and intermittent connectivity of my drone horrifies me) and when someone dies in a video game they respawn...
    - pests 3y ago
      No lag compensation. Extremely server-authoritative.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    I wasn't talking about signal latency, I was talk about the time it took for an operator to sign on and take control.
- haltist 3y ago
  It's good enough for the routes that Cruise uses in the city.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  It might not actually matter. Since the car can operate autonomously already, the operator doesn't necessarily need to literally drive the car. They might simply need to hop in to verification of actions in unusual situations. I'm imagining a situation where a car comes across a parked truck on a one-way road (common in cities). A human operator comes in the loop to ensure that it's actually safe to switch lanes and pass. Check for things like emergency vehicles, unusual pedestrians, etc. They don't need to literally take the wheel, just confirm that the vehicle can take a specific action.
hartator 3y ago
There is an emergency every 2-5 miles?
- alkonaut 3y ago
  That sounds pretty low if it's city driving or poor conditions. I know some of the trial cities are basically easy mode (wide streets, almost never snows..) but still.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    First off: not even close. Waymo has a disengagement rate of 0.076 per 1,000 miles. Second: You're shifting the goalposts from the grandparent comment's assertion that these interventions are to be expected in an "emergency", when the frequency of the interventions shows they're clearly not "emergency" interventions but part of normal operation.
l33t7332273 3y ago
> It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models It isn’t remotely the same. This would be like if human operators typed some of chatGPTs answers
- haltist 3y ago
  OK, you must know more than I do about how human feedback is used for tuning large language models.
ra7 3y ago
This is completely incorrect. Remote operators cannot “take over controls” at all and hence cannot help in any “emergency” i.e. safety critical situation (e.g. preventing a crash). All they can do is assist the vehicle with things drawing a path to get around a parked vehicle, instructing it to do a multi-point turn when it’s stuck and so on. What the article says is that Cruise vehicles need some sort of assistance every 2.5 to 5 miles (I highly doubt this number is accurate). Not that they’re getting into emergency situations that frequently.
- haltist 3y ago
  Do you work at Cruise?
  - ra7 3y ago
    No.
    - haltist 3y ago
      Then you wouldn't know if I was completely incorrect or not.
      - ra7 3y ago
        I do because I know self driving companies have talked about how remote operations work. It doesn’t involve taking control of the vehicle. Here’s a Waymo engineer explaining how they can’t joystick a car: https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/s/2ujFLZoLbo https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/s/2ujFLZoLbo And here is Zoox’s video about their teleoperations: https://youtu.be/NKQHuutVx78?si=4PDnG0gQm6lEnp9v https://youtu.be/NKQHuutVx78?si=4PDnG0gQm6lEnp9v No reason to believe Cruise is doing any different. If you have evidence of the contrary, please share it.
        haltist 3y ago
        So you are 100% certain that remote operators can not take over the car?

throwaway5959 3y ago

The latency on that has to be massive.

jonhohle 3y ago
Why? UAVs are piloted remotely, video games are played remotely with sub-100ms latency. Getting a remote driver connected might a while, but afterwards it seems like a mostly solved (in practice) problem.
- notahacker 3y ago
  UAVs don't have to deal with traffic (the thought of driving a vehicle with the latency and intermittent connectivity of my drone horrifies me) and when someone dies in a video game they respawn...
  - pests 3y ago
    No lag compensation. Extremely server-authoritative.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  I wasn't talking about signal latency, I was talk about the time it took for an operator to sign on and take control.
haltist 3y ago
It's good enough for the routes that Cruise uses in the city.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
It might not actually matter. Since the car can operate autonomously already, the operator doesn't necessarily need to literally drive the car. They might simply need to hop in to verification of actions in unusual situations. I'm imagining a situation where a car comes across a parked truck on a one-way road (common in cities). A human operator comes in the loop to ensure that it's actually safe to switch lanes and pass. Check for things like emergency vehicles, unusual pedestrians, etc. They don't need to literally take the wheel, just confirm that the vehicle can take a specific action.

hartator 3y ago

There is an emergency every 2-5 miles?

alkonaut 3y ago
That sounds pretty low if it's city driving or poor conditions. I know some of the trial cities are basically easy mode (wide streets, almost never snows..) but still.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  First off: not even close. Waymo has a disengagement rate of 0.076 per 1,000 miles. Second: You're shifting the goalposts from the grandparent comment's assertion that these interventions are to be expected in an "emergency", when the frequency of the interventions shows they're clearly not "emergency" interventions but part of normal operation.

l33t7332273 3y ago

> It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models It isn’t remotely the same. This would be like if human operators typed some of chatGPTs answers

haltist 3y ago
OK, you must know more than I do about how human feedback is used for tuning large language models.

ra7 3y ago

This is completely incorrect. Remote operators cannot “take over controls” at all and hence cannot help in any “emergency” i.e. safety critical situation (e.g. preventing a crash). All they can do is assist the vehicle with things drawing a path to get around a parked vehicle, instructing it to do a multi-point turn when it’s stuck and so on. What the article says is that Cruise vehicles need some sort of assistance every 2.5 to 5 miles (I highly doubt this number is accurate). Not that they’re getting into emergency situations that frequently.

haltist 3y ago
Do you work at Cruise?
- ra7 3y ago
  No.
  - haltist 3y ago
    Then you wouldn't know if I was completely incorrect or not.
    - ra7 3y ago
      I do because I know self driving companies have talked about how remote operations work. It doesn’t involve taking control of the vehicle. Here’s a Waymo engineer explaining how they can’t joystick a car: https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/s/2ujFLZoLbo https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/s/2ujFLZoLbo And here is Zoox’s video about their teleoperations: https://youtu.be/NKQHuutVx78?si=4PDnG0gQm6lEnp9v https://youtu.be/NKQHuutVx78?si=4PDnG0gQm6lEnp9v No reason to believe Cruise is doing any different. If you have evidence of the contrary, please share it.
      - haltist 3y ago
        So you are 100% certain that remote operators can not take over the car?