5 ms·

While I get the argument about safety (and think that is a reasonable place for regulation), I don't think most consumers make their choices on electric vs. gas

by bumby 3y ago

While I get the argument about safety (and think that is a reasonable place for regulation), I don't think most consumers make their choices on electric vs. gas ranges due to some misinformation campaign about emissions. The people I know who are serious about cooking tend to prefer gas for much more pragmatic reasons. Gas burns hotter, throttles more effectively across a wider range of temperatures, has fewer parts/tends to last longer, and is often cheaper to operate (at least post-fracking).

mcpackieh 3y ago
Furthermore, the people who choose gas aren't the people most at risk from the emissions since if you have the opportunity and money to install the kind of stove you want, you probably also have the money and opportunity to install a fume hood venting to the outside for it. Gas stove emissions are most harmful to people living in cheap rented homes where the stove was installed without a fume hood and the resident doesn't have the money or opportunity to address that. These people didn't choose gas in the first place; the kind of stove an apartment has is far below rent and location in their list of considerations when choosing where to live.
akprasad 3y ago
The article states: > Despite this evidence, the gas industry’s campaign was largely successful. Industry-funded studies successfully muddied the waters, as I have seen over the course of my research career, and stalled further federal investigations or regulations addressing gas stove safety. Consumer indifference to safety concerns and federal lethargy in regulating or investigating them are, to me, precisely the outcomes a misinformation campaign of this kind would aim for. Nor is the impact small. It's just one study, but: > This issue took on new life at the end of 2022, when researchers published a new study estimating that 12.7 percent of US cases of childhood asthma—about one case in eight—were attributable to gas stoves.
- bumby 3y ago
  This is a different point. Can we prove the campaign is the result of safety indifference? Or are consumers already indifferent given the countering benefits? American consumers seem indifferent to the safety risks of all kinds of products, even when they don’t have a concerted campaign behind them. I’m just saying there may be other reasons besides safety consumers make this choice.
xnx 3y ago
Gas wouldn't be nearly as bad if all kitchens had sufficient ventilation. Good ventilation would also benefit electric ranges as well since a lot of airborne pollutants originate from the food itself.
- bumby 3y ago
  I’m personally not a big fan of the current trend to remodel with ranges on an island with no vent hood.
russdill 3y ago
Induction tops can be all those things, but right now to UI tends too be rather annoying.
- bumby 3y ago
  I think induction is great. The main downside is that gas can help with some charring, depending on how fancy you want to get. I’ve heard some people say gas is cheaper, but I imagine that’s fairly negligible for a single family home.
tanseydavid 3y ago
They could handle this issue the same as California did with Proposition 65 which "requires businesses to provide warnings to Californians about significant exposures to chemicals that cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm." There is no need to foster actual safety when you can just put up warning and disclaimer signs everywhere. I am reaching a bit to make a point, but hear me out: if you live in California, try to pay close attention and notice all of the Prop 65 warning signs you see as you go about your day. Then ask yourself this: "if you really wanted to protect or insulate yourself from the dangers that Prop 65 warns about, how would you go about it? Would it even be possible in a practical sense?" My opinion is that the answer is "No. That would be impossible." So the Prop 65 warning signs (which is all Prop 65 amounts to in terms of laws) do literally nothing except provide cover/deniability/risk-displacement for businesses and maybe the State of California. How would you compare the associated health risks with Prop 65 chemicals with the health risks of operating a Gas Stovetop? Why are they not treated in like manner?
throw0101b 3y ago
> Gas burns hotter And how much of that heat actually gets transferred to the pan, versus just billowing off the side of it? More importantly: how much of it gets to the food? With electricity, especially inductive, how much gets to the food?
- bumby 3y ago
  I don’t know empirically, but anecdotally chefs all use gas for this reason. Especially when you cook with cast iron, it cooks much hotter
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    Chefs used gas because it was historically the easiest thing to get high output on and easy of control (i.e., little inertial for adjustments). That is no longer the exclusive domain of gas anymore: * https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/what-on-earth-induction-stoves-1.6411937 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/what-on-earth-induction-stov... * https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/worried-about-giving-up-gas-these-toronto-chefs-say-induction-stoves-are-a-game-changer/article_c6657146-dbf4-5425-a099-daf1c041c141.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/worried-about-giving-up-... * https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/the-vancouver-restaurants-ditching-gas-stoves-for-electric-induction-7544169 https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/the-vancouver-... See also Michelin-starred chefs: * https://robbreport.com/food-drink/dining/how-le-bernardins-master-chef-designed-minimalist-kitchen-for-efficiency-1234668620/ https://robbreport.com/food-drink/dining/how-le-bernardins-m... * https://www.idealhome.co.uk/news/induction-hob-255651 https://www.idealhome.co.uk/news/induction-hob-255651 * https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/kitchen-designers-michelin-starred-restaurants https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/kitchen-de... Professional kitchens also have giant, well-designed vent hoods to send the fumes and heat outside: most domestic/residential kitchens usually have shitty hoods (if they have them at all (not all rentals do), and some don't even vent outside) that people often don't bother even running. The act of cooking produces various chemical regards of heat source, but gas stove also add chemicals from combustion (would you run a BBQ in your house? a car?) and may not be vented outside.
infecto 3y ago
This is no longer the case for many of the higher end kitchens. Even if they keep the gas burners, a lot of cooking now is happening over induction tops. It heats the pan quicker than gas. Easier to adjust and less risk of a burn.

by bumby 3y ago

mcpackieh 3y ago

Furthermore, the people who choose gas aren't the people most at risk from the emissions since if you have the opportunity and money to install the kind of stove you want, you probably also have the money and opportunity to install a fume hood venting to the outside for it. Gas stove emissions are most harmful to people living in cheap rented homes where the stove was installed without a fume hood and the resident doesn't have the money or opportunity to address that. These people didn't choose gas in the first place; the kind of stove an apartment has is far below rent and location in their list of considerations when choosing where to live.

akprasad 3y ago

The article states: > Despite this evidence, the gas industry’s campaign was largely successful. Industry-funded studies successfully muddied the waters, as I have seen over the course of my research career, and stalled further federal investigations or regulations addressing gas stove safety. Consumer indifference to safety concerns and federal lethargy in regulating or investigating them are, to me, precisely the outcomes a misinformation campaign of this kind would aim for. Nor is the impact small. It's just one study, but: > This issue took on new life at the end of 2022, when researchers published a new study estimating that 12.7 percent of US cases of childhood asthma—about one case in eight—were attributable to gas stoves.

bumby 3y ago
This is a different point. Can we prove the campaign is the result of safety indifference? Or are consumers already indifferent given the countering benefits? American consumers seem indifferent to the safety risks of all kinds of products, even when they don’t have a concerted campaign behind them. I’m just saying there may be other reasons besides safety consumers make this choice.

xnx 3y ago

Gas wouldn't be nearly as bad if all kitchens had sufficient ventilation. Good ventilation would also benefit electric ranges as well since a lot of airborne pollutants originate from the food itself.

bumby 3y ago
I’m personally not a big fan of the current trend to remodel with ranges on an island with no vent hood.

russdill 3y ago

Induction tops can be all those things, but right now to UI tends too be rather annoying.

bumby 3y ago
I think induction is great. The main downside is that gas can help with some charring, depending on how fancy you want to get. I’ve heard some people say gas is cheaper, but I imagine that’s fairly negligible for a single family home.

tanseydavid 3y ago

They could handle this issue the same as California did with Proposition 65 which "requires businesses to provide warnings to Californians about significant exposures to chemicals that cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm." There is no need to foster actual safety when you can just put up warning and disclaimer signs everywhere. I am reaching a bit to make a point, but hear me out: if you live in California, try to pay close attention and notice all of the Prop 65 warning signs you see as you go about your day. Then ask yourself this: "if you really wanted to protect or insulate yourself from the dangers that Prop 65 warns about, how would you go about it? Would it even be possible in a practical sense?" My opinion is that the answer is "No. That would be impossible." So the Prop 65 warning signs (which is all Prop 65 amounts to in terms of laws) do literally nothing except provide cover/deniability/risk-displacement for businesses and maybe the State of California. How would you compare the associated health risks with Prop 65 chemicals with the health risks of operating a Gas Stovetop? Why are they not treated in like manner?

throw0101b 3y ago

> Gas burns hotter And how much of that heat actually gets transferred to the pan, versus just billowing off the side of it? More importantly: how much of it gets to the food? With electricity, especially inductive, how much gets to the food?

bumby 3y ago
I don’t know empirically, but anecdotally chefs all use gas for this reason. Especially when you cook with cast iron, it cooks much hotter
- throw0101b 3y ago
  Chefs used gas because it was historically the easiest thing to get high output on and easy of control (i.e., little inertial for adjustments). That is no longer the exclusive domain of gas anymore: * https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/what-on-earth-induction-stoves-1.6411937 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/what-on-earth-induction-stov... * https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/worried-about-giving-up-gas-these-toronto-chefs-say-induction-stoves-are-a-game-changer/article_c6657146-dbf4-5425-a099-daf1c041c141.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/worried-about-giving-up-... * https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/the-vancouver-restaurants-ditching-gas-stoves-for-electric-induction-7544169 https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/the-vancouver-... See also Michelin-starred chefs: * https://robbreport.com/food-drink/dining/how-le-bernardins-master-chef-designed-minimalist-kitchen-for-efficiency-1234668620/ https://robbreport.com/food-drink/dining/how-le-bernardins-m... * https://www.idealhome.co.uk/news/induction-hob-255651 https://www.idealhome.co.uk/news/induction-hob-255651 * https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/kitchen-designers-michelin-starred-restaurants https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/kitchen-de... Professional kitchens also have giant, well-designed vent hoods to send the fumes and heat outside: most domestic/residential kitchens usually have shitty hoods (if they have them at all (not all rentals do), and some don't even vent outside) that people often don't bother even running. The act of cooking produces various chemical regards of heat source, but gas stove also add chemicals from combustion (would you run a BBQ in your house? a car?) and may not be vented outside.

infecto 3y ago

This is no longer the case for many of the higher end kitchens. Even if they keep the gas burners, a lot of cooking now is happening over induction tops. It heats the pan quicker than gas. Easier to adjust and less risk of a burn.