5 ms·

Moral outrage won't make the economics work out.

lm28469 3y ago
Why are countries who invested in nuclear enjoying the cheapest and cleanest electricity then ? The "economics" seem to work very well for them. Why do I pay 47ct/kwh in Germany while my parents pay 13ct/kwh in France ?
- chpatrick 3y ago
  Because France already has a ton of installed nuclear capacity and Germany stupidly got rid of it. But as alternatives get better and better it makes less sense to start a 20 year process to install new nuclear.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Call me when Germany's electricity is clean and cheap then, I bet we'll be in the same place in 25 years, in the meantime it's reality VS sci-fi, and so far reality is harsh
    - natmaka 3y ago
      In France fossil fuels produce ~65% of final energy, and the project aiming at building the first instance of a series of reactors (EPR) planned in 2004 is a failure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanville_3_%28France%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanvi... Germany generates more and more clean electricity while not loosing too much of its industrial sector, with a higher GDP and while getting rid of its nuclear: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/low-carbon-electricity?tab=chart&time=2000..latest&country=DEU~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/low-carbon-electricity?ta... France emits less partly thanks to the dramatic reduction of its industrial sector: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-co2-embedded-in-trade?tab=chart&region=Europe&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-co2-embedded-in-tra... The net difference between France and Germany isn't as high as sometimes claimed: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=1990..latest&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t...
      - realusername 3y ago
        > The net difference between France and Germany isn't as high as sometimes claimed: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t... How can you say it's not massive? Germany hasn't even reached the 90s levels of France yet..
        natmaka 3y ago
        The major factors are: France was massively less industrial than Germany, its industrial sector is way less developed than 30 years ago (not emitting is easy when you buy more imported goods), its GDP is quite lower, its climate warmer.
        realusername 3y ago
        Maybe it's also due to the fact that France has 40% electric heating and in Germany it's something like 5%...
- b3orn 3y ago
  Because you chose the most expensive energy provider? I pay significantly less than 47ct/kWh in Germany.
- pydry 3y ago
  Why do I pay eye watering rents to live in a shoebox while my parents pay 0 rent to live in a massive house? France's electricity prices will either sky rocket when their paid off 70s nuclear plants finally age out or they will keep running them and open up an exciting new world of nuclear disaster risks. Germany, meanwhile, will be sitting pretty once it has paid off the capex on its far cheaper green energy.
  - realusername 3y ago
    > Germany, meanwhile, will be sitting pretty once it has paid off the capex on its far cheaper green energy. Well no, not really. what's preventing that is the low lifespan of renewables. They are close to 0% of the way of their 2050 goals and will understand the meaning of exponential installation pretty soon.
    - pydry 3y ago
      This is just wrong. They produce roughly 50% from renewables. The lifespan is baked into LCOE - the measure where nuclear power is 5x as expensive.
      - realusername 3y ago
        That's exactly what I said yes, everything (or very close to) will be decommissioned by 2050. If you have 50GW of renewables installed and you have a goal of 100GW, you need to install ... 100GW.
        cinntaile 3y ago
        The renewables they have right now of course count towards their 2050 goals, that they need to get replaced eventually is a given but doesn't zero out their current contribution towards that goal.
        realusername 3y ago
        No they don't for the most majority since they have to be decommissioned. They have to install renewables every month just to keep the existing capacity running, not even talking about expanding it.
- natmaka 3y ago
  Electricity is less expensive in France than in Germany because the French taxpayer pays a higher share of the energy system. https://data.oecd.org/chart/7eRr https://data.oecd.org/chart/7eRr

Why are countries who invested in nuclear enjoying the cheapest and cleanest electricity then ? The "economics" seem to work very well for them. Why do I pay 47ct/kwh in Germany while my parents pay 13ct/kwh in France ?

chpatrick 3y ago
Because France already has a ton of installed nuclear capacity and Germany stupidly got rid of it. But as alternatives get better and better it makes less sense to start a 20 year process to install new nuclear.
- lm28469 3y ago
  Call me when Germany's electricity is clean and cheap then, I bet we'll be in the same place in 25 years, in the meantime it's reality VS sci-fi, and so far reality is harsh
  - natmaka 3y ago
    In France fossil fuels produce ~65% of final energy, and the project aiming at building the first instance of a series of reactors (EPR) planned in 2004 is a failure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanville_3_%28France%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanvi... Germany generates more and more clean electricity while not loosing too much of its industrial sector, with a higher GDP and while getting rid of its nuclear: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/low-carbon-electricity?tab=chart&time=2000..latest&country=DEU~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/low-carbon-electricity?ta... France emits less partly thanks to the dramatic reduction of its industrial sector: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-co2-embedded-in-trade?tab=chart&region=Europe&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-co2-embedded-in-tra... The net difference between France and Germany isn't as high as sometimes claimed: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=1990..latest&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t...
    - realusername 3y ago
      > The net difference between France and Germany isn't as high as sometimes claimed: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t... How can you say it's not massive? Germany hasn't even reached the 90s levels of France yet..
      - natmaka 3y ago
        The major factors are: France was massively less industrial than Germany, its industrial sector is way less developed than 30 years ago (not emitting is easy when you buy more imported goods), its GDP is quite lower, its climate warmer.
        realusername 3y ago
        Maybe it's also due to the fact that France has 40% electric heating and in Germany it's something like 5%...
b3orn 3y ago
Because you chose the most expensive energy provider? I pay significantly less than 47ct/kWh in Germany.
pydry 3y ago
Why do I pay eye watering rents to live in a shoebox while my parents pay 0 rent to live in a massive house? France's electricity prices will either sky rocket when their paid off 70s nuclear plants finally age out or they will keep running them and open up an exciting new world of nuclear disaster risks. Germany, meanwhile, will be sitting pretty once it has paid off the capex on its far cheaper green energy.
- realusername 3y ago
  > Germany, meanwhile, will be sitting pretty once it has paid off the capex on its far cheaper green energy. Well no, not really. what's preventing that is the low lifespan of renewables. They are close to 0% of the way of their 2050 goals and will understand the meaning of exponential installation pretty soon.
  - pydry 3y ago
    This is just wrong. They produce roughly 50% from renewables. The lifespan is baked into LCOE - the measure where nuclear power is 5x as expensive.
    - realusername 3y ago
      That's exactly what I said yes, everything (or very close to) will be decommissioned by 2050. If you have 50GW of renewables installed and you have a goal of 100GW, you need to install ... 100GW.
      - cinntaile 3y ago
        The renewables they have right now of course count towards their 2050 goals, that they need to get replaced eventually is a given but doesn't zero out their current contribution towards that goal.
        realusername 3y ago
        No they don't for the most majority since they have to be decommissioned. They have to install renewables every month just to keep the existing capacity running, not even talking about expanding it.
natmaka 3y ago
Electricity is less expensive in France than in Germany because the French taxpayer pays a higher share of the energy system. https://data.oecd.org/chart/7eRr https://data.oecd.org/chart/7eRr