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In Europe where GMOs are banned and pesticide use is lower...yields are higher than in the US. "We need to use poison to grow food to feed everyone" is bunch o

In Europe where GMOs are banned and pesticide use is lower...yields are higher than in the US. "We need to use poison to grow food to feed everyone" is bunch of false-dilemma poppycock. If it were truly a matter of "we need to feed everyone", we wouldn't be wasting massive amounts of grain on raising cattle, which is one of most wasteful ways of generating food there is. 80% of agricultural land is used for cattle, but they only represent 20% of the calories in food consumed. We also wouldn't be growing corn just to turn it into ethanol, a net-energy-negative process. We also wouldn't be controlling the price of sugar, thus creating a huge demand for corn to turn into corn syrup. Corn is also an incredibly resource-intensive crop all on its own, and the monocropping is terrible for the soil. But corn is where the money is..

batch12 3y ago
> 80% of agricultural land is used for cattle I don't think this is true. Did you mean livestock?
- b112 3y ago
  On top of that, much land cattle graze on is entirely unsuitable for growing crops.
rschneid 3y ago
Anecdotally, I think pesticides become 'necessary' when a specific farm desires greater than a particular density of crop. Sure, the collective can achieve sufficient production with less use of these chemicals however when a farm is at a point where their plants are touching each other then serious pesticides are required if they wish to increase their yield further without pests becoming a catastrophic risk to the entire operation. If only we could all agree to just grow 'enough' instead of growing as much as science allows...
- hinkley 3y ago
  Once we started expecting farmers to be specialists instead of generalists. If you only know apples you want as many of them as you can fit. Which means pathogens have a buffet laid out.
cyberax 3y ago
> pesticide use is lower... It's not. Europe uses somewhat lower amount of pesticides because it has more land that regularly freezes which helps to control insects. When corrected for that, Europe uses more pesticides for similar climates. > yields are higher than in the US. They aren't, when corrected for the land area.
- ftrobro 3y ago
  What do you mean by "corrected for the land area"? According to this study, in the period 2016-2020 wheat yields per acre were more than twice as high in Germany than in North Dakota or Kansas. https://ag.purdue.edu/commercialag/home/resource/2022/05/international-benchmarks-for-wheat-production-2/ https://ag.purdue.edu/commercialag/home/resource/2022/05/int...
  - bluGill 3y ago
    North Dakota and Kansas are deserts or near desert. Germany gets 2 to 7 times more rain per year (depending on which part of Germany you look at)
    - ftrobro 3y ago
      That is probably a major reason for the higher yields in Germany, but the person I replied to claimed that yields aren't really higher in Europe than in the US. According to data from the UN, in 2020 North America used 2.77 kg pesticiedes per hectare cropland and Europe used 1.69 kg/ha, and yet Europe has higher yields per hectare. So clearly Europe uses less pesticedes per produced amount of food. https://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/RP https://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/RP
      - cyberax 3y ago
        I'm sorry, I was a bit unclear. Instead of: > They aren't, when corrected for the land area. I should have said "for the geographical area". You need to compare yields in similar climates and soils.
    - 3y ago
lolinder 3y ago
> In Europe where GMOs are banned and pesticide use is lower...yields are higher than in the US. While this may be causal, agriculture is incredibly complex, and I would hesitate to come to any conclusions about causality from this bit of data alone.
- dathinab 3y ago
  one major point is that you need to use the soil substainable and as far as I know the US did do exact the opposite en mass GMO by itself isn't bad, but a lot of GMO is made in a way which is harmful to the soil on the long term (and sometimes even short term) Similar much higher limits for the amount of fertilizers used allow you to use approaches to growing crops which short and mid term have more yield but also drain the soil in a non-substainable way leading to a death spiral of needing increasingly more and more fertilizers, insecticides and at some point GMO modified crops. While most EU countries had for a long time (but not necessary still have) laws which require a more sustainable ground usage and having a larger movement of people buying food which even more stricter constraints wrt. fertilizers and pesticides.

batch12 3y ago

> 80% of agricultural land is used for cattle I don't think this is true. Did you mean livestock?

b112 3y ago
On top of that, much land cattle graze on is entirely unsuitable for growing crops.

rschneid 3y ago

Anecdotally, I think pesticides become 'necessary' when a specific farm desires greater than a particular density of crop. Sure, the collective can achieve sufficient production with less use of these chemicals however when a farm is at a point where their plants are touching each other then serious pesticides are required if they wish to increase their yield further without pests becoming a catastrophic risk to the entire operation. If only we could all agree to just grow 'enough' instead of growing as much as science allows...

hinkley 3y ago
Once we started expecting farmers to be specialists instead of generalists. If you only know apples you want as many of them as you can fit. Which means pathogens have a buffet laid out.

cyberax 3y ago

> pesticide use is lower... It's not. Europe uses somewhat lower amount of pesticides because it has more land that regularly freezes which helps to control insects. When corrected for that, Europe uses more pesticides for similar climates. > yields are higher than in the US. They aren't, when corrected for the land area.

ftrobro 3y ago
What do you mean by "corrected for the land area"? According to this study, in the period 2016-2020 wheat yields per acre were more than twice as high in Germany than in North Dakota or Kansas. https://ag.purdue.edu/commercialag/home/resource/2022/05/international-benchmarks-for-wheat-production-2/ https://ag.purdue.edu/commercialag/home/resource/2022/05/int...
- bluGill 3y ago
  North Dakota and Kansas are deserts or near desert. Germany gets 2 to 7 times more rain per year (depending on which part of Germany you look at)
  - ftrobro 3y ago
    That is probably a major reason for the higher yields in Germany, but the person I replied to claimed that yields aren't really higher in Europe than in the US. According to data from the UN, in 2020 North America used 2.77 kg pesticiedes per hectare cropland and Europe used 1.69 kg/ha, and yet Europe has higher yields per hectare. So clearly Europe uses less pesticedes per produced amount of food. https://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/RP https://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/RP
    - cyberax 3y ago
      I'm sorry, I was a bit unclear. Instead of: > They aren't, when corrected for the land area. I should have said "for the geographical area". You need to compare yields in similar climates and soils.
  - 3y ago

lolinder 3y ago

> In Europe where GMOs are banned and pesticide use is lower...yields are higher than in the US. While this may be causal, agriculture is incredibly complex, and I would hesitate to come to any conclusions about causality from this bit of data alone.

dathinab 3y ago
one major point is that you need to use the soil substainable and as far as I know the US did do exact the opposite en mass GMO by itself isn't bad, but a lot of GMO is made in a way which is harmful to the soil on the long term (and sometimes even short term) Similar much higher limits for the amount of fertilizers used allow you to use approaches to growing crops which short and mid term have more yield but also drain the soil in a non-substainable way leading to a death spiral of needing increasingly more and more fertilizers, insecticides and at some point GMO modified crops. While most EU countries had for a long time (but not necessary still have) laws which require a more sustainable ground usage and having a larger movement of people buying food which even more stricter constraints wrt. fertilizers and pesticides.