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> Ah got it Apparently not.... > So if someone pulls up alongside you at 80mph on a highway and remotely disables your vehicle without your prior consent and

by blagie 3y ago

> Ah got it Apparently not.... > So if someone pulls up alongside you at 80mph on a highway and remotely disables your vehicle without your prior consent and you crash into a barricade and your entire family dies, we can just take note of the threat vector and find comfort in the fact that maybe an auto manufacturer will harden their cars against future risks. Makes a ton of sense. A better example: Someone casually remotely disables all cars in parking lots. They need to be unbricked, which is a month-long process. The outcome is cars are built with security built in. That prevents a terrorist attack six months later where someone was plotting to disable thousands of cars on highways in the way you described. Cost: Hundreds of parking lot vehicles disabled, with a range of (very real) consequences, such as missing job interviews, missing school pickups, missed medical appointments, etc. Upside: Dozens of lives saved (but since this never happens, it's abstract lives) It's very much the trolley problem. It's of course possible to set up absurd trolley problems (pull a lever, kill 5 people instead of 1, rather than the other way around, as you're doing). People have different answers to the trolley problem.

ethanbond 3y ago
Yep, if you brick a bunch of people's actual cars, on which they actually depend, in exchange for some hypothetical (?) future (?) hardening (?) against a hypothetical (?) future (?) threat (?), then yeah, you're an asshole. And you should just go to jail. If you like trolling people you can just say it. No need to make up this "no dude I'm actually helping you defend against a maybe-terrorist attack!" Yeah, it's like a trolley problem where you tie both sets of people to the tracks and put the trolley in motion. Brilliant.
- blagie 3y ago
  I am trying to explain to you why people might have a different value system from you. It's a lost cause. I, and many others, have the ability to understand value systems we don't share. It would be a good skill to consider developing, in an increasingly diverse world.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    You're acting like I'm unaware of the ideas of redteaming or chaos engineering or bug bounties or system resilience and that there's some "value system" blindness that prevents me from understanding it. I understand and value all of these things. What I'm explaining to you is the ridiculously, ridiculously obvious point that responsible redteaming, chaos engineering, or bug bounty pursuits do not put innocent bystanders at risk. And if you do put innocent bystanders at risk, you are an asshole. Sure, I get that some people have value systems that dispute this, and I'm perfectly comfortable saying those value systems are not worthy of respect. Intelligence isn't thinking so hard and so abstractly that you can't identify antisocial behavior and inflicting harm on innocent people for very likely zero actual practical societal gain. That's just, again, a convoluted excuse for being an asshole.
john_the_writer 3y ago
A better example would not be disabling all cars in a parking lot. The cars are inert. The phones are active, so driving down the road was apt. It's not a trolly problem, because the 5 people might be on the track but the 1 person is 200km down the track. Bluetooth has always been leaky, but apart from being trapped on a train it's mostly mitigated by being able to walk away. It's not something techs are un-aware of. Also.. 99% of the people on the train wouldn't have any idea what's going on. Calling tech support later would have zero affect. So it's not highlighting the issue to anyone who could remotely address it. The dongle dude here was just being a jerk because he could. Playing loud music would have been about the same. "I'm going to take joy in confusing/annoying others."

by blagie 3y ago

ethanbond 3y ago

Yep, if you brick a bunch of people's actual cars, on which they actually depend, in exchange for some hypothetical (?) future (?) hardening (?) against a hypothetical (?) future (?) threat (?), then yeah, you're an asshole. And you should just go to jail. If you like trolling people you can just say it. No need to make up this "no dude I'm actually helping you defend against a maybe-terrorist attack!" Yeah, it's like a trolley problem where you tie both sets of people to the tracks and put the trolley in motion. Brilliant.

blagie 3y ago
I am trying to explain to you why people might have a different value system from you. It's a lost cause. I, and many others, have the ability to understand value systems we don't share. It would be a good skill to consider developing, in an increasingly diverse world.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  You're acting like I'm unaware of the ideas of redteaming or chaos engineering or bug bounties or system resilience and that there's some "value system" blindness that prevents me from understanding it. I understand and value all of these things. What I'm explaining to you is the ridiculously, ridiculously obvious point that responsible redteaming, chaos engineering, or bug bounty pursuits do not put innocent bystanders at risk. And if you do put innocent bystanders at risk, you are an asshole. Sure, I get that some people have value systems that dispute this, and I'm perfectly comfortable saying those value systems are not worthy of respect. Intelligence isn't thinking so hard and so abstractly that you can't identify antisocial behavior and inflicting harm on innocent people for very likely zero actual practical societal gain. That's just, again, a convoluted excuse for being an asshole.

john_the_writer 3y ago

A better example would not be disabling all cars in a parking lot. The cars are inert. The phones are active, so driving down the road was apt. It's not a trolly problem, because the 5 people might be on the track but the 1 person is 200km down the track. Bluetooth has always been leaky, but apart from being trapped on a train it's mostly mitigated by being able to walk away. It's not something techs are un-aware of. Also.. 99% of the people on the train wouldn't have any idea what's going on. Calling tech support later would have zero affect. So it's not highlighting the issue to anyone who could remotely address it. The dongle dude here was just being a jerk because he could. Playing loud music would have been about the same. "I'm going to take joy in confusing/annoying others."