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The problem, I think, is that the things I'm accusing Hamas of are so horrific that they sound like the sort of lies somebody would make up. Surely they don't s

The problem, I think, is that the things I'm accusing Hamas of are so horrific that they sound like the sort of lies somebody would make up. Surely they don't shoot people trying to leave buildings that Israel has said they're going to bomb just so that they could use it for propaganda. And even if I provided you video evidence of it, the source of that is always going to be the IDF, so it's "propaganda" regardless of its authenticity. And yet it's true, so we've in a bind here. You don't want to believe it; I sure as hell don't want to believe it. But if you take a second to think about what the consequences would be, you'd find that they're consistent what we've seen: an awful lot of civilians dead, but not nearly what you'd expect from a campaign of genocide. It's not about Israel inflicting "the same" on other civilians. It's about the fact that Hamas is using those civilians as human shields. If the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly. Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. But this is the truth, as best I can tell it, and I'm not going to equivocate with it when the source of conflicting assertions is the same people who raped and tortured people who could not possibly have anything to do with their situation.

catlover76 3y ago
I think you partly misunderstand where our disagreement lies. For example, I'm willing to believe those allegations regarding Hamas (or at least assume their truth arguendo), but I find it extremely naive to think this isn't largely about inflicting revenge and retribution on Palestinians, and that "[i]f the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly." > Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. Well, they look non-existent to me. Which is fine--I'm not "progressive", either. But I'm not sure you should really make the claim (just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of falsely portraying your views). I was I could probably make a cogent argument for how you are selectively choosing to not apply the same progressive principles of interpretation, viewing power structures, etc., that you normally do, and have bought into a worldview and attendant justifications that you would likely not accept or would find highly suspect in other contexts. Like, I'm pretty moderate center-left and non-ideological in general, but I haven't ever felt more pushed towards leftist radicalization and wokeness than seeing a number of people emboldened by the media to downplay collective punishment in the form of pretty blatant slaughter, shutting down supplies of food and water to civilians, etc., and to delegitimize any viewpoints which express sympathy for Palestinian victims of this war. Although, I think more than left, I think it makes me more cynical/apathetic and uninterested in continuing to preserve or care for a society this blatantly hypocritical and unjust.

catlover76 3y ago

I think you partly misunderstand where our disagreement lies. For example, I'm willing to believe those allegations regarding Hamas (or at least assume their truth arguendo), but I find it extremely naive to think this isn't largely about inflicting revenge and retribution on Palestinians, and that "[i]f the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly." > Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. Well, they look non-existent to me. Which is fine--I'm not "progressive", either. But I'm not sure you should really make the claim (just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of falsely portraying your views). I was I could probably make a cogent argument for how you are selectively choosing to not apply the same progressive principles of interpretation, viewing power structures, etc., that you normally do, and have bought into a worldview and attendant justifications that you would likely not accept or would find highly suspect in other contexts. Like, I'm pretty moderate center-left and non-ideological in general, but I haven't ever felt more pushed towards leftist radicalization and wokeness than seeing a number of people emboldened by the media to downplay collective punishment in the form of pretty blatant slaughter, shutting down supplies of food and water to civilians, etc., and to delegitimize any viewpoints which express sympathy for Palestinian victims of this war. Although, I think more than left, I think it makes me more cynical/apathetic and uninterested in continuing to preserve or care for a society this blatantly hypocritical and unjust.