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In talking about "throwing open the border" I'm talking about the longstanding conflict between the left and Israel. Israel is consistently accused of "aparthei

In talking about "throwing open the border" I'm talking about the longstanding conflict between the left and Israel. Israel is consistently accused of "apartheid", which I feel is unjust. They do indeed have a wall between them and Gaza -- a wall that usually prevents attacks like the one on October 7th. That is not at all comparable to the situation in South Africa, and I think that the false equivalence demeans both situations. I think that statements condemning the October 7th attacks are perfectly reasonable in excluding references to the Palestinians. That was not an act of warfare. It had no chance of accomplishing any political goal. It was a sadistic atrocity, in a way that its high body count alone obscures. This situation is not well served just by totting up the numbers of corpses. That accounting is made murkier by the way Hamas uses its citizens as human shields. Hamas has been using civilian apartment buildings for years -- long before October 7 -- to attack Israel. Israel issues warnings before the buildings are attacked, and Hamas has been accused of forcing the residents to stay. That accusation sounds shocking, but given the events of October 7 (which went far beyond mere massacre of innocents to include rape, torture, and mutilation), it's unfortunately easy to believe. As I said before, I do think that it was right and good to tell Israel to stop its settlements in the West Bank. They should have implemented the Oslo Accords long ago. Crimes committed by settlers should be laid at the feet of the Likud government. But note that those are on the West Bank, not Gaza. Gaza had been turned over to the Palestinians in 2009. Hamas has run it since they won the election -- and refused to hold any more elections. This wasn't about mistreatment, and it's perfectly reasonable for corporate statements to link Israel's crimes in the West Bank to the situation in Gaza. That's why I think that this letter is such a mistake. The situation is complex and ugly, and it's not well served by a shallow, one-sided understanding. Omitting a return of the hostages is merely missing something that "makes sense". It demonstrates a failure to recognize how thoroughly Palestinian propaganda has distorted the genuine problems. Much of what they think they know "regarding the treatment of the Palestinians" is a lie -- and I say that having reiterated that I'm well aware that there are some genuine truths buried among the lies.

catlover76 3y ago
I don't think you're as much of a "bleeding heart" as you claim (which is fine--you don't have to be, and we'd have a problem in fact if everyone was some over-compassionate woke lefty) if you can't feel that the kind of conditions placed on Gaza merit more moral opprobrium and that "that statements condemning the October 7th attacks are perfectly reasonable in excluding references to the Palestinians". Especially since what I am talking about are statements made weeks after, when the Palestinian death toll climbed into the thousands, any sort of sentiment expressing concern for Palestinian life is routinely condemned as "pro-Hamas", and any sort of criticism of Israel's actions is attacked as "anti-semitic", as if being the victim of an atrocity confers upon a country a blank check to inflict the same on other civilians. You're calling a lot "Palestinian propaganda", but really, you seem to just be parroting the opposite type of propaganda, in which western media is suffused. And I'm not too much of a partisan of this conflict, IMO; I don't have too strong of an opinion as to whether the situation is "apartheid" or whether Israel's current actions amount to "genocide". I don't disagree with blaming Hamas for this latest outbreak of war. I don't really care that much about Palestinian statehood (no ethnic group or nation has a right to any land or country, in my view). In general, I don't begrudge Israel the right to take military action to reclaim their hostages and strike a blow against Hamas. But I am deeply disturbed by how aggressively most of the West has come to agree that Palestinian civilians and innocents fail to matter. One would hope that the same people who support #BlackLivesMatter would see what's happening now and call it out, but that seems not to be the case; this is even more egregious than waving thin blue line flags, and otherwise liberal people are all in on it.
- jfengel 3y ago
  The problem, I think, is that the things I'm accusing Hamas of are so horrific that they sound like the sort of lies somebody would make up. Surely they don't shoot people trying to leave buildings that Israel has said they're going to bomb just so that they could use it for propaganda. And even if I provided you video evidence of it, the source of that is always going to be the IDF, so it's "propaganda" regardless of its authenticity. And yet it's true, so we've in a bind here. You don't want to believe it; I sure as hell don't want to believe it. But if you take a second to think about what the consequences would be, you'd find that they're consistent what we've seen: an awful lot of civilians dead, but not nearly what you'd expect from a campaign of genocide. It's not about Israel inflicting "the same" on other civilians. It's about the fact that Hamas is using those civilians as human shields. If the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly. Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. But this is the truth, as best I can tell it, and I'm not going to equivocate with it when the source of conflicting assertions is the same people who raped and tortured people who could not possibly have anything to do with their situation.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    I think you partly misunderstand where our disagreement lies. For example, I'm willing to believe those allegations regarding Hamas (or at least assume their truth arguendo), but I find it extremely naive to think this isn't largely about inflicting revenge and retribution on Palestinians, and that "[i]f the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly." > Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. Well, they look non-existent to me. Which is fine--I'm not "progressive", either. But I'm not sure you should really make the claim (just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of falsely portraying your views). I was I could probably make a cogent argument for how you are selectively choosing to not apply the same progressive principles of interpretation, viewing power structures, etc., that you normally do, and have bought into a worldview and attendant justifications that you would likely not accept or would find highly suspect in other contexts. Like, I'm pretty moderate center-left and non-ideological in general, but I haven't ever felt more pushed towards leftist radicalization and wokeness than seeing a number of people emboldened by the media to downplay collective punishment in the form of pretty blatant slaughter, shutting down supplies of food and water to civilians, etc., and to delegitimize any viewpoints which express sympathy for Palestinian victims of this war. Although, I think more than left, I think it makes me more cynical/apathetic and uninterested in continuing to preserve or care for a society this blatantly hypocritical and unjust.

catlover76 3y ago

I don't think you're as much of a "bleeding heart" as you claim (which is fine--you don't have to be, and we'd have a problem in fact if everyone was some over-compassionate woke lefty) if you can't feel that the kind of conditions placed on Gaza merit more moral opprobrium and that "that statements condemning the October 7th attacks are perfectly reasonable in excluding references to the Palestinians". Especially since what I am talking about are statements made weeks after, when the Palestinian death toll climbed into the thousands, any sort of sentiment expressing concern for Palestinian life is routinely condemned as "pro-Hamas", and any sort of criticism of Israel's actions is attacked as "anti-semitic", as if being the victim of an atrocity confers upon a country a blank check to inflict the same on other civilians. You're calling a lot "Palestinian propaganda", but really, you seem to just be parroting the opposite type of propaganda, in which western media is suffused. And I'm not too much of a partisan of this conflict, IMO; I don't have too strong of an opinion as to whether the situation is "apartheid" or whether Israel's current actions amount to "genocide". I don't disagree with blaming Hamas for this latest outbreak of war. I don't really care that much about Palestinian statehood (no ethnic group or nation has a right to any land or country, in my view). In general, I don't begrudge Israel the right to take military action to reclaim their hostages and strike a blow against Hamas. But I am deeply disturbed by how aggressively most of the West has come to agree that Palestinian civilians and innocents fail to matter. One would hope that the same people who support #BlackLivesMatter would see what's happening now and call it out, but that seems not to be the case; this is even more egregious than waving thin blue line flags, and otherwise liberal people are all in on it.

jfengel 3y ago
The problem, I think, is that the things I'm accusing Hamas of are so horrific that they sound like the sort of lies somebody would make up. Surely they don't shoot people trying to leave buildings that Israel has said they're going to bomb just so that they could use it for propaganda. And even if I provided you video evidence of it, the source of that is always going to be the IDF, so it's "propaganda" regardless of its authenticity. And yet it's true, so we've in a bind here. You don't want to believe it; I sure as hell don't want to believe it. But if you take a second to think about what the consequences would be, you'd find that they're consistent what we've seen: an awful lot of civilians dead, but not nearly what you'd expect from a campaign of genocide. It's not about Israel inflicting "the same" on other civilians. It's about the fact that Hamas is using those civilians as human shields. If the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly. Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. But this is the truth, as best I can tell it, and I'm not going to equivocate with it when the source of conflicting assertions is the same people who raped and tortured people who could not possibly have anything to do with their situation.
- catlover76 3y ago
  I think you partly misunderstand where our disagreement lies. For example, I'm willing to believe those allegations regarding Hamas (or at least assume their truth arguendo), but I find it extremely naive to think this isn't largely about inflicting revenge and retribution on Palestinians, and that "[i]f the Palestinians turned over the Hamas leadership, and insisted that they not pursue their attacks from inside hospitals and residences, then the Israeli attack would stop instantly." > Yes, I hate the way this makes my progressive credentials look weak. Well, they look non-existent to me. Which is fine--I'm not "progressive", either. But I'm not sure you should really make the claim (just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of falsely portraying your views). I was I could probably make a cogent argument for how you are selectively choosing to not apply the same progressive principles of interpretation, viewing power structures, etc., that you normally do, and have bought into a worldview and attendant justifications that you would likely not accept or would find highly suspect in other contexts. Like, I'm pretty moderate center-left and non-ideological in general, but I haven't ever felt more pushed towards leftist radicalization and wokeness than seeing a number of people emboldened by the media to downplay collective punishment in the form of pretty blatant slaughter, shutting down supplies of food and water to civilians, etc., and to delegitimize any viewpoints which express sympathy for Palestinian victims of this war. Although, I think more than left, I think it makes me more cynical/apathetic and uninterested in continuing to preserve or care for a society this blatantly hypocritical and unjust.