3 ms·

Of course shipping a very outdated tool with your OS is an issue. And the fact that you need to use 3rd-party package managers to update/replace it is also an i

by wubrr 3y ago

Of course shipping a very outdated tool with your OS is an issue. And the fact that you need to use 3rd-party package managers to update/replace it is also an issue. But if you want to contend that anything that is solveable via customization/3rd party packages is a 'total non-issue', then I fail to see how you could argue that Linux isn't superior to MacOS in every single way.

karolist 3y ago
It's not an issue even if you say it is. Takes 1 minute to setup brew on a fresh Mac, third party or not who cares when it's open source, apt is also open-source and in the same sense a third party someone develops, you just get that with the base Debian like systems, if we start counting the minute wasted to setup brew then you waste more time to install Debian in the first place, Macs come pre-installed.
- wubrr 3y ago
  It literally is an issue, and the fact that you're pointing out a potential solution should make that obvious to you. Many software companies (including FAANGs) have basically given up trying to support building/running most of their software on mac for these exact reasons, and they have really tried - dedicating hundreds of experienced engineers to the problem.
  - karolist 3y ago
    I call BS on the FAANG statement. I work at FAANG and 80% SWEs use MBPs, actually if we go by literal meaning of FAANG company list, they do not even focus on desktop software and are mostly web companies and the tooling is all backend where SWE machines do not do any heavy lifting.
    - wubrr 3y ago
      You work at FAANG and you can run your entire stack on MacOS? Which FAANG? Or you mean, you work at FAANG and you can run your web application which is 0.01% of the stack on your mac? > they do not even focus on desktop software and are mostly web companies and the tooling is all backend where SWE machines do not do any heavy lifting. The web frontend/ui is a relatively small portion of the development that goes on at typical FAANG. And the reason the macs 'do not do any heavy lifting' is because they literally can't - most of the complex backend systems, low low level/high performance code, etc can't be run on macos.
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        The complex backend code isn’t going to work on your little laptop either. This is a stupid position to take, because people care more about whether they can spin up a development environment, not run all the code that goes to production.
        wubrr 3y ago
        > The complex backend code isn’t going to work on your little laptop either. Of course it will if it's a linux laptop. Companies even give exceptions for linux laptops for exactly this reason. > This is a stupid position to take, because people care more about whether they can spin up a development environment, not run all the code that goes to production. You think being able to run the code you're working on is not a requirement for a good development environment? Or you think nobody writes this code, it just magically appears in production when you deploy your html page? Lmao.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        This was the original comment > Many software companies (including FAANGs) have basically given up trying to support building/running most of their software on mac for these exact reasons Why would Amazon or Google waste a single minute trying to get software to build on Macs that are targeted to run on Linux servers? Exactly what point are you attempting to make?
        saagarjha 3y ago
        Just because your machine runs Linux and the server runs Linux doesn't mean the code is going to work on your computer. How are you supposed to test failover on a cluster that kicks in when hitting 100k QPS? It's just not practical to run the whole stack locally on your machine.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    This is total bullshit. Amazon and Microsoft both support the Mac thoroughly. From what I saw when I was there, most developers at Amazon use Macs.
    - wubrr 3y ago
      You're completely wrong. I worked at Amazon (AWS) for years, yes developers generally use macs, but they generally cannot run their entire stacks on mac. Most of the actual software people work on is run on remote linux (AL2) ec2 instances after syncing the code from mac. Running the entire AWS stack on macos is literally impossible at this point because major pieces aren't even built for macos (and can't be without major rewrites).
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        No one is going to run the entire AWS stack on their Mac when it’s targeting Linux. Amazon “suppprting” Macs mean outside developer support like AWS CLI, CDK, SAM, Amazon Chime, etc. Of course we all spun up Isengard accounts when we needed a lot of CPU horsepower or to run some dependencies instead of running something locally. Why wouldn’t you? You worked at the only company that never had to worry about a large AWS bill. Also all of the internally written MDM tools also supported Macs.
        wubrr 3y ago
        > No one is going to run the entire AWS stack on their Mac when it’s targeting Linux. You literally just claimed everyone at Amazon uses macs for development and runs their code on their macs. This is not the case for the vast majority of code written at Amazon. > Amazon “suppprting” Macs mean outside developer support like AWS CLI, CDK, SAM, Amazon Chime, etc. Nobody said anything about 'amazon "supporting" macs' and what that means except you, just now, when you moved the goalpost. > Of course we all spun up Isengard accounts when we needed a lot of CPU horsepower or to run some dependencies instead of running something locally. What? Using remote development environments/ec2 boxes is literally the default at AWS and it has nothing to do with 'CPU horsepower'. Most of the ec2 instances used for development are far less powerful than a macbook pro.
- wredue 3y ago
  Does brew still require mangling OS permissions?
  - foldr 3y ago
    No. This is answered on the Homebrew installation page: https://docs.brew.sh/Installation https://docs.brew.sh/Installation
    - wredue 3y ago
      That page appears to very much describe that it does, in fact, still fuck your systems permissions… I’ll never install homebrew as long as the dev continues this amateur hour bullshit.
      - foldr 3y ago
        Could you explain what you mean by this? I don’t see it on the page, and I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “OS permissions”. See also here from 2016: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/253404/how-does-homebrew-no-longer-need-ownership-of-usr-local https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/253404/how-does-ho...

by wubrr 3y ago

karolist 3y ago

It's not an issue even if you say it is. Takes 1 minute to setup brew on a fresh Mac, third party or not who cares when it's open source, apt is also open-source and in the same sense a third party someone develops, you just get that with the base Debian like systems, if we start counting the minute wasted to setup brew then you waste more time to install Debian in the first place, Macs come pre-installed.

wubrr 3y ago
It literally is an issue, and the fact that you're pointing out a potential solution should make that obvious to you. Many software companies (including FAANGs) have basically given up trying to support building/running most of their software on mac for these exact reasons, and they have really tried - dedicating hundreds of experienced engineers to the problem.
- karolist 3y ago
  I call BS on the FAANG statement. I work at FAANG and 80% SWEs use MBPs, actually if we go by literal meaning of FAANG company list, they do not even focus on desktop software and are mostly web companies and the tooling is all backend where SWE machines do not do any heavy lifting.
  - wubrr 3y ago
    You work at FAANG and you can run your entire stack on MacOS? Which FAANG? Or you mean, you work at FAANG and you can run your web application which is 0.01% of the stack on your mac? > they do not even focus on desktop software and are mostly web companies and the tooling is all backend where SWE machines do not do any heavy lifting. The web frontend/ui is a relatively small portion of the development that goes on at typical FAANG. And the reason the macs 'do not do any heavy lifting' is because they literally can't - most of the complex backend systems, low low level/high performance code, etc can't be run on macos.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      The complex backend code isn’t going to work on your little laptop either. This is a stupid position to take, because people care more about whether they can spin up a development environment, not run all the code that goes to production.
      - wubrr 3y ago
        > The complex backend code isn’t going to work on your little laptop either. Of course it will if it's a linux laptop. Companies even give exceptions for linux laptops for exactly this reason. > This is a stupid position to take, because people care more about whether they can spin up a development environment, not run all the code that goes to production. You think being able to run the code you're working on is not a requirement for a good development environment? Or you think nobody writes this code, it just magically appears in production when you deploy your html page? Lmao.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        This was the original comment > Many software companies (including FAANGs) have basically given up trying to support building/running most of their software on mac for these exact reasons Why would Amazon or Google waste a single minute trying to get software to build on Macs that are targeted to run on Linux servers? Exactly what point are you attempting to make?
        saagarjha 3y ago
        Just because your machine runs Linux and the server runs Linux doesn't mean the code is going to work on your computer. How are you supposed to test failover on a cluster that kicks in when hitting 100k QPS? It's just not practical to run the whole stack locally on your machine.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  This is total bullshit. Amazon and Microsoft both support the Mac thoroughly. From what I saw when I was there, most developers at Amazon use Macs.
  - wubrr 3y ago
    You're completely wrong. I worked at Amazon (AWS) for years, yes developers generally use macs, but they generally cannot run their entire stacks on mac. Most of the actual software people work on is run on remote linux (AL2) ec2 instances after syncing the code from mac. Running the entire AWS stack on macos is literally impossible at this point because major pieces aren't even built for macos (and can't be without major rewrites).
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      No one is going to run the entire AWS stack on their Mac when it’s targeting Linux. Amazon “suppprting” Macs mean outside developer support like AWS CLI, CDK, SAM, Amazon Chime, etc. Of course we all spun up Isengard accounts when we needed a lot of CPU horsepower or to run some dependencies instead of running something locally. Why wouldn’t you? You worked at the only company that never had to worry about a large AWS bill. Also all of the internally written MDM tools also supported Macs.
      - wubrr 3y ago
        > No one is going to run the entire AWS stack on their Mac when it’s targeting Linux. You literally just claimed everyone at Amazon uses macs for development and runs their code on their macs. This is not the case for the vast majority of code written at Amazon. > Amazon “suppprting” Macs mean outside developer support like AWS CLI, CDK, SAM, Amazon Chime, etc. Nobody said anything about 'amazon "supporting" macs' and what that means except you, just now, when you moved the goalpost. > Of course we all spun up Isengard accounts when we needed a lot of CPU horsepower or to run some dependencies instead of running something locally. What? Using remote development environments/ec2 boxes is literally the default at AWS and it has nothing to do with 'CPU horsepower'. Most of the ec2 instances used for development are far less powerful than a macbook pro.
wredue 3y ago
Does brew still require mangling OS permissions?
- foldr 3y ago
  No. This is answered on the Homebrew installation page: https://docs.brew.sh/Installation https://docs.brew.sh/Installation
  - wredue 3y ago
    That page appears to very much describe that it does, in fact, still fuck your systems permissions… I’ll never install homebrew as long as the dev continues this amateur hour bullshit.
    - foldr 3y ago
      Could you explain what you mean by this? I don’t see it on the page, and I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “OS permissions”. See also here from 2016: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/253404/how-does-homebrew-no-longer-need-ownership-of-usr-local https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/253404/how-does-ho...