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It's also true that once a city finally stops ignoring the inadequate bandwidth of an extremely busy road and expands it, new businesses and attractions may wan

It's also true that once a city finally stops ignoring the inadequate bandwidth of an extremely busy road and expands it, new businesses and attractions may want to be built along that more pleasant road leading to more people wanting to take the road. I agree entirely that a great public transportation system is a much better solution, but for places that don't have one and aren't going to create one, insisting that induced demand makes expanding roads inappropriate is just... wrong. Ultimately, if falls on cities to provide people with a way to get to where they want to be and leaving bottlenecks in place makes people miserable and stifles the local economy.

pixl97 3y ago
> and stifles the local economy. Oh no, we're going going to stifle the local economy for billions of dollars, and all we have to do is take on 10s to 100s of billion of dollars of debt to avoid it... This is just turning into a hedonistic treadmill of turning more and more of your space into transportation infrastructure by means of debt.
- autoexec 3y ago
  It's hardly hedonistic to want to leave your house and investing in transportation infrastructure should pay for itself.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    The point is that automobile infrastructure does not pay for itself; it is too energy-inefficient, too upkeep-inefficient, and too space-inefficient. Cars do not scale.
ryukafalz 3y ago
> It's also true that once a city finally stops ignoring the inadequate bandwidth of an extremely busy road and expands it, new businesses and attractions may want to be built along that more pleasant road leading to more people wanting to take the road. Once you get out of your car, a street with more lanes of traffic is far far less pleasant to be in than a street with less. To use an example from Philadelphia near me, which of these streets would you rather spend time in? Vine Street, with 3 lanes of traffic in each direction and a freeway below in the center median? https://maps.app.goo.gl/3KqvmfbxLcN8wQtp9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/3KqvmfbxLcN8wQtp9 Or the much narrower 17th street, with only two lanes total? https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozmEtLGfh2hojyVo7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozmEtLGfh2hojyVo7 As someone who lived nearby for about 7 years, I know which I'd choose.
- autoexec 3y ago
  You'll notice that most of things on the two lane road are intended for people (shops, banks, churches) unlike the first road where the things are mostly for cars (gas stations, parking lots). There's nothing wrong with big roads designed primarily for cars that bring people into or away from quieter areas designed primarily for people where they can walk around and shop.
  - ryukafalz 3y ago
    > There's nothing wrong with big roads designed primarily for cars that bring people into or away from quieter areas designed primarily for people where they can walk around and shop. There is in cities, because there those two things cannot be so neatly separated. Some historical context here: Vine Street cuts through Chinatown. Prior to its expansion, there were homes and businesses in the space that's now roadway. They were demolished to make way for the car. The scars of that are still visible today; if you walk through the neighborhood it's clear that Chinatown north of Vine is struggling compared to its counterpart on the south side, and the two sides feel cut off from one another. And it makes crossing more dangerous. My commute for years involved crossing Vine, and though I sometimes would bike I had to plan my route very carefully because there were few places where doing so would be at all safe. People live and work on either side of that street. There are senior homes within a few blocks of it.

pixl97 3y ago

> and stifles the local economy. Oh no, we're going going to stifle the local economy for billions of dollars, and all we have to do is take on 10s to 100s of billion of dollars of debt to avoid it... This is just turning into a hedonistic treadmill of turning more and more of your space into transportation infrastructure by means of debt.

autoexec 3y ago
It's hardly hedonistic to want to leave your house and investing in transportation infrastructure should pay for itself.
- kibwen 3y ago
  The point is that automobile infrastructure does not pay for itself; it is too energy-inefficient, too upkeep-inefficient, and too space-inefficient. Cars do not scale.

ryukafalz 3y ago

> It's also true that once a city finally stops ignoring the inadequate bandwidth of an extremely busy road and expands it, new businesses and attractions may want to be built along that more pleasant road leading to more people wanting to take the road. Once you get out of your car, a street with more lanes of traffic is far far less pleasant to be in than a street with less. To use an example from Philadelphia near me, which of these streets would you rather spend time in? Vine Street, with 3 lanes of traffic in each direction and a freeway below in the center median? https://maps.app.goo.gl/3KqvmfbxLcN8wQtp9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/3KqvmfbxLcN8wQtp9 Or the much narrower 17th street, with only two lanes total? https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozmEtLGfh2hojyVo7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozmEtLGfh2hojyVo7 As someone who lived nearby for about 7 years, I know which I'd choose.

autoexec 3y ago
You'll notice that most of things on the two lane road are intended for people (shops, banks, churches) unlike the first road where the things are mostly for cars (gas stations, parking lots). There's nothing wrong with big roads designed primarily for cars that bring people into or away from quieter areas designed primarily for people where they can walk around and shop.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  > There's nothing wrong with big roads designed primarily for cars that bring people into or away from quieter areas designed primarily for people where they can walk around and shop. There is in cities, because there those two things cannot be so neatly separated. Some historical context here: Vine Street cuts through Chinatown. Prior to its expansion, there were homes and businesses in the space that's now roadway. They were demolished to make way for the car. The scars of that are still visible today; if you walk through the neighborhood it's clear that Chinatown north of Vine is struggling compared to its counterpart on the south side, and the two sides feel cut off from one another. And it makes crossing more dangerous. My commute for years involved crossing Vine, and though I sometimes would bike I had to plan my route very carefully because there were few places where doing so would be at all safe. People live and work on either side of that street. There are senior homes within a few blocks of it.