6 ms·

It's mostly just a joke about how these roles do their jobs. But I think it's also partly illuminating the fact that hardware engineers are true engineers, whi

by smt88 3y ago

It's mostly just a joke about how these roles do their jobs. But I think it's also partly illuminating the fact that hardware engineers are true engineers, while software engineers mostly aren't.

renewiltord 3y ago
True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :)
- fhd2 3y ago
  "Empirical science" sounds better than "have you tried turning it off and on again?", doesn't it.
  - monista 3y ago
    I read is as a reference to https://xkcd.com/242/ https://xkcd.com/242/
- tmpz22 3y ago
  > True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :) Yes replication: Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again.
  - sophacles 3y ago
    When did software estimates ever factor into deadlines? I have always found that my estimates + a bit of padding are generally correct. Then management just picks an arbitrary due date that has nothing to do with programmer estimates.
    - nly 3y ago
      Plus nobody estimates on timescales anymore. We all use sprint points.
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    Wow somebody’s salty
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    It isn't difficult to find non-software projects that overshot deadlines by years and costs by tens of millions or more, just to still have a leaky roof. Including, whether you believe it or not, engineering work.
wruza 3y ago
Why not hire hardware engineers to write software then?
- smt88 3y ago
  Software engineers are cheaper and more plentiful
  - wruza 3y ago
    Cheaper?
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Because software development isnt an engineering task. Engineers are good at building bridges, and artists are good at making paintings. That doesnt mean it is a good idea to have the engineers paint paintings.
  - wruza 3y ago
    That’s the point. It’s not software developer’s fault that things are the way they are. Anyone with strict engineering discipline or whatever is welcome to create software the right way.
  - ganzuul 3y ago
    To artists, engineers are artists who are good at math. Art is for everyone. Painting is a special form of art. Math makes for beautiful art, so download LibreCAD and free your mind. (Speaking as an ex. IT guy, ex. CNC machinist who is attending art school at the age of 40 as a form of rehab.)
  - stronglikedan 3y ago
    Software engineers for critical systems would like a word.
    - gretch 3y ago
      Yeah it makes no sense. Like, you build an airplane and clearly the airplane needs both it's software and it's hardware in order to fly. Somehow the people who made the hardware are engineers, but the people who made the software aren't engineers.
organian 3y ago
I think "software engineers aren't really engineers" is putting "real engineering" on a pedestal that is borne of ignorance. Hillel Wayne's engineer interviews were eye-opening on this: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I have a different take. Engineer is basically synonymous with application physicist. Someone why applies the laws of physics to achieve a goal. I don't think this is so much a pedestal, or why some software engineers are passionate. Is being a computer scientist somehow negative?
  - sterlind 3y ago
    I think of applied physicist as something very different, closer to science than engineering. The kinds of people who research new battery chemistries, or the techniques to unlock new semiconductor process nodes. Basically, scientists do hardcore research and expand the field, while engineers apply the techniques and formulas that the scientists have discovered, and craftsmen combine prepackaged modules built by engineers for a job. So an applied physicist discovers the light-emitting diode. An electrical engineer designs an LED light panel. An electrician wires light panels into a home. Likewise, a computer scientist discovers NFA reduction, an engineer uses it to build a regular expression compiler, and a developer writes a regex to validate email addresses.
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      An electrician who designs a complex light panel using 120VAC for use in a habitable or public building needs to submit the plans to the building department to get a permit and certify that it's not a fire hazard. You need to be a Licensed Engineer™ to do certain levels of certification. People certified to be licensed engineers didn't necessarily graduate from a School of Engineering at a famous university that is also filled with physicists and mathematicians and English literature. Instead they need to study, learn, and pass the tests that legally certify them as Licensed Engineers™ to keep us all safe. It's much of the same material, overlapping, but not the same. They're less likely to consider themselves ready to move over to building rocketships to the moon on the basis of their bachelors degree. This is the source of all the debate about who is an Engineer and who is not. Licensed Engineers don't want to consider unlicensed engineers as engineers. People who went to universities and had to study a dose of liberal arts along with control theory to get their "Engineering degree" don't want to consider the choo choo Train Engineer™ as an engineer. In the US there is a bit of academic snobbery around, it's not universal but, University of Michigan is harder to get into academically, and a little more high falutin'. Michigan State is a bit more plebian but more practical. University of Washington vs. Washington State, same thing, and so on. The licensed engineers are more likely to come from the State school, the unlicensed engineers more likely from the University of. Both want recognition for their training, which makes sense. I'm exaggerating for effect, but this is the issue. Whether software engineers are engineers is a minor skirmish on the flank of this larger war, both because there are no certifications for computer engineers, and because mathematicians are not engineers and programming languages can be studied from a mathematical perspective or from something closer to Electrical Engineering.

by smt88 3y ago

It's mostly just a joke about how these roles do their jobs. But I think it's also partly illuminating the fact that hardware engineers are true engineers, while software engineers mostly aren't.

renewiltord 3y ago

True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :)

fhd2 3y ago
"Empirical science" sounds better than "have you tried turning it off and on again?", doesn't it.
- monista 3y ago
  I read is as a reference to https://xkcd.com/242/ https://xkcd.com/242/
tmpz22 3y ago
> True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :) Yes replication: Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again.
- sophacles 3y ago
  When did software estimates ever factor into deadlines? I have always found that my estimates + a bit of padding are generally correct. Then management just picks an arbitrary due date that has nothing to do with programmer estimates.
  - nly 3y ago
    Plus nobody estimates on timescales anymore. We all use sprint points.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  Wow somebody’s salty
- alpaca128 3y ago
  It isn't difficult to find non-software projects that overshot deadlines by years and costs by tens of millions or more, just to still have a leaky roof. Including, whether you believe it or not, engineering work.

wruza 3y ago

Why not hire hardware engineers to write software then?

smt88 3y ago
Software engineers are cheaper and more plentiful
- wruza 3y ago
  Cheaper?
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Because software development isnt an engineering task. Engineers are good at building bridges, and artists are good at making paintings. That doesnt mean it is a good idea to have the engineers paint paintings.
- wruza 3y ago
  That’s the point. It’s not software developer’s fault that things are the way they are. Anyone with strict engineering discipline or whatever is welcome to create software the right way.
- ganzuul 3y ago
  To artists, engineers are artists who are good at math. Art is for everyone. Painting is a special form of art. Math makes for beautiful art, so download LibreCAD and free your mind. (Speaking as an ex. IT guy, ex. CNC machinist who is attending art school at the age of 40 as a form of rehab.)
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  Software engineers for critical systems would like a word.
  - gretch 3y ago
    Yeah it makes no sense. Like, you build an airplane and clearly the airplane needs both it's software and it's hardware in order to fly. Somehow the people who made the hardware are engineers, but the people who made the software aren't engineers.

organian 3y ago

I think "software engineers aren't really engineers" is putting "real engineering" on a pedestal that is borne of ignorance. Hillel Wayne's engineer interviews were eye-opening on this: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I have a different take. Engineer is basically synonymous with application physicist. Someone why applies the laws of physics to achieve a goal. I don't think this is so much a pedestal, or why some software engineers are passionate. Is being a computer scientist somehow negative?
- sterlind 3y ago
  I think of applied physicist as something very different, closer to science than engineering. The kinds of people who research new battery chemistries, or the techniques to unlock new semiconductor process nodes. Basically, scientists do hardcore research and expand the field, while engineers apply the techniques and formulas that the scientists have discovered, and craftsmen combine prepackaged modules built by engineers for a job. So an applied physicist discovers the light-emitting diode. An electrical engineer designs an LED light panel. An electrician wires light panels into a home. Likewise, a computer scientist discovers NFA reduction, an engineer uses it to build a regular expression compiler, and a developer writes a regex to validate email addresses.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    An electrician who designs a complex light panel using 120VAC for use in a habitable or public building needs to submit the plans to the building department to get a permit and certify that it's not a fire hazard. You need to be a Licensed Engineer™ to do certain levels of certification. People certified to be licensed engineers didn't necessarily graduate from a School of Engineering at a famous university that is also filled with physicists and mathematicians and English literature. Instead they need to study, learn, and pass the tests that legally certify them as Licensed Engineers™ to keep us all safe. It's much of the same material, overlapping, but not the same. They're less likely to consider themselves ready to move over to building rocketships to the moon on the basis of their bachelors degree. This is the source of all the debate about who is an Engineer and who is not. Licensed Engineers don't want to consider unlicensed engineers as engineers. People who went to universities and had to study a dose of liberal arts along with control theory to get their "Engineering degree" don't want to consider the choo choo Train Engineer™ as an engineer. In the US there is a bit of academic snobbery around, it's not universal but, University of Michigan is harder to get into academically, and a little more high falutin'. Michigan State is a bit more plebian but more practical. University of Washington vs. Washington State, same thing, and so on. The licensed engineers are more likely to come from the State school, the unlicensed engineers more likely from the University of. Both want recognition for their training, which makes sense. I'm exaggerating for effect, but this is the issue. Whether software engineers are engineers is a minor skirmish on the flank of this larger war, both because there are no certifications for computer engineers, and because mathematicians are not engineers and programming languages can be studied from a mathematical perspective or from something closer to Electrical Engineering.