4 ms·

>"It's not entirely clear how punishing it harder" It seems like nowadays 'punishing at all' is a serious issue. If the police say they won't show up for theft

>"It's not entirely clear how punishing it harder" It seems like nowadays 'punishing at all' is a serious issue. If the police say they won't show up for theft under a certain dollar amount they've basically made it legal to steal up to that amount. >"until you actually help the truly desperate" Food banks and welfare programs exist. I feel like sympathetic people are ignoring the fact that some people realize they can do illegal things because it gives them an advantage, not solely because there is no other option.

Spivak 3y ago
Food banks and welfare programs don't cover the things that are actually unaffordable. We have food banks and SNAP because food is cheap and abundant. And guess what, poor people can afford things that are cheap and abundant. We can talk about honor and the nobility of suffering or whatever your catholic school taught you but the reality is that humans need a certain level of comfort before they stop doing things that are considered desperate acts to get there. You steal the stuff you can't afford that gives you comfort and puts you ahead enough that you still have money to make rent. Things like laptops, phones, tvs, video games have a high comfort/risk ratio and significantly raise your tolerance to the shittiness of the rest of your life.
- BitwiseFool 3y ago
  Don't assume my stance comes from a Catholic upbringing, or from any religion at all. There's no need to frame this in terms of "honor and the nobility of suffering". I'm not saying people should suffer, I'm saying people shouldn't steal, particularly when alternatives exist. If the question is "when is theft permissible" most people aren't going to agree that stealing "laptops, phones, tvs, video games" is okay because it will make the thief feel better about how shitty their life is.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    I'm not arguing it's permissible, I'm saying you're gonna get nowhere trying to fight the river of rational actors who are following the natural optimization problem of value/risk. People who are desperate are going to steal and they're going to steal certain classes of goods. You either deal with this or will forever be demonizing the very people you want to help because they're not behaving in the way you've decided they should to be worthy of sympathy.
    - BitwiseFool 3y ago
      >"or will forever be demonizing the very people you want to help" I'm not demonizing anyone and this choice of words shows a gross misunderstanding of how most people feel about theft. >"because they're not behaving in the way you've decided they should to be worthy of sympathy." What's so wrong about this? I can definitely lose sympathy for someone who makes the choice to break the law and harm others when they could have chosen a non-violent alternative that would have probably helped the more. When that happens they should face consequences, be judged, and hopefully be rehabilitated.

Spivak 3y ago

Food banks and welfare programs don't cover the things that are actually unaffordable. We have food banks and SNAP because food is cheap and abundant. And guess what, poor people can afford things that are cheap and abundant. We can talk about honor and the nobility of suffering or whatever your catholic school taught you but the reality is that humans need a certain level of comfort before they stop doing things that are considered desperate acts to get there. You steal the stuff you can't afford that gives you comfort and puts you ahead enough that you still have money to make rent. Things like laptops, phones, tvs, video games have a high comfort/risk ratio and significantly raise your tolerance to the shittiness of the rest of your life.

BitwiseFool 3y ago
Don't assume my stance comes from a Catholic upbringing, or from any religion at all. There's no need to frame this in terms of "honor and the nobility of suffering". I'm not saying people should suffer, I'm saying people shouldn't steal, particularly when alternatives exist. If the question is "when is theft permissible" most people aren't going to agree that stealing "laptops, phones, tvs, video games" is okay because it will make the thief feel better about how shitty their life is.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I'm not arguing it's permissible, I'm saying you're gonna get nowhere trying to fight the river of rational actors who are following the natural optimization problem of value/risk. People who are desperate are going to steal and they're going to steal certain classes of goods. You either deal with this or will forever be demonizing the very people you want to help because they're not behaving in the way you've decided they should to be worthy of sympathy.
  - BitwiseFool 3y ago
    >"or will forever be demonizing the very people you want to help" I'm not demonizing anyone and this choice of words shows a gross misunderstanding of how most people feel about theft. >"because they're not behaving in the way you've decided they should to be worthy of sympathy." What's so wrong about this? I can definitely lose sympathy for someone who makes the choice to break the law and harm others when they could have chosen a non-violent alternative that would have probably helped the more. When that happens they should face consequences, be judged, and hopefully be rehabilitated.