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Meanwhile there's a brutal price war going on in China, with EVs going down in price below ICE propositions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/202

by Tade0 3y ago

Meanwhile there's a brutal price war going on in China, with EVs going down in price below ICE propositions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/08/08/chinese-evs-are-now-cheaper-than-gasoline-cars/d763cefa-3639-11ee-ac4e-e707870e43db_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/08/08/ch... Non-Chinese automakers better prepare themselves, because whoever comes out on top from that struggle will take over the market just like it happened with solar panels.

JKCalhoun 3y ago
Because of their relative simplicity, I always assumed electric vehicles would be much cheaper than internal combustion engine cars — excepting the battery. (Although even there you would think that without oil changes and using presumably less expensive electricity rather than gasoline would make the EV cheaper to own over all.) I suppose EV-as-luxury-vehicle is maybe how an industry kicks off before the market begins to mature and prices come down. I look forward to the phase of the market when EVs become affordable for everyone.
- toddmorey 3y ago
  They are simple powertrains fueled by complex and heavy battery chemistry. I think affordable for everyone will happen with the next generation of solid state batteries.
  - stavros 3y ago
    What's complex about it? Isn't it 18650 cells welded together?
    - user_7832 3y ago
      I'd also love to hear what's the complexity about. To me the high costs are a side effect of EVs still being seen as luxury vehicles, and not specifically because EV tech is inherently costly.
      - stavros 3y ago
        I build RC planes as a hobby, and I regularly have to weld such batteries myself. Obviously the requirements in a commercial product are different, but I can't see what's so complicated about Li-ion batteries and their lifecycle. They seem an order of magnitude easier than all the tight-tolerance moving parts of an ICE that need a complicated computer controller just to fire properly.
      - Tade0 3y ago
        I suppose it's the chemistry that's going on in there. In principle it's all simple, but what exactly happens inside is not as well studied as combustion engines. Case in point: this year researchers found out that a type of tape used in li-ion batteries is actually not chemically stable in this environment and replacing it with a different material increased lifespan by 10% and decreased self-discharge by 70%: https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-tape-lithium-ion-batteries-battery-degradation.html https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-tape-lithium-ion-batteri... Plenty of other stories of this type - one of them brought LFP batteries into the limelight, because researchers figured out how to close to double their capacity.
        stavros 3y ago
        Huh, interesting. We've used Li-ion batteries for decades, so I wouldn't have guessed we'd still have such fundamental things we didn't know about them.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
That's basically happening indeed. Companies like Stellantis and VW are already partnering with Chinese companies and especially in the EU there are now a growing number of options on the market that are interesting for people with smaller budgets. Stellantis (Fiat, Citroen, Opel, etc.) is launching lots of interesting new models in the EU lately. The new Citroen e-c3 is supposed to be priced around 23000 euro. That's a small family car, not a crazy amount of range but usable. The citroen ami, is only about 7000 euro and more of a glorified golf cart than a car. But for 7-8K it is pretty awesome and pretty handy for getting around town. Opel (also Stellantis) has a similar car called the Rocks-e that I saw in Berlin on the streets a few weeks ago. I think it sells for a similar price. It looks like more or less the same product with some minor differences. The whole notion that an electric car is just a battery with some wheels and not much more means that there are going to be a lot of companies racing to the bottom in terms of cost and form factors. The main constraint here is price and availability of batteries and other components. That market is growing and there's not shortage of demand for any of that.
- Tade0 3y ago
  I hope it goes in that direction because I'm this close to buying an actual, street legal golf cart - mostly so that it's easier to find a parking spot. I was hopeful for this: http://squadmobility.com/ http://squadmobility.com/ But they seem to have went dark - I saw one comment on YouTube asking (in Dutch) why aren't they responding to emails.

by Tade0 3y ago

JKCalhoun 3y ago

Because of their relative simplicity, I always assumed electric vehicles would be much cheaper than internal combustion engine cars — excepting the battery. (Although even there you would think that without oil changes and using presumably less expensive electricity rather than gasoline would make the EV cheaper to own over all.) I suppose EV-as-luxury-vehicle is maybe how an industry kicks off before the market begins to mature and prices come down. I look forward to the phase of the market when EVs become affordable for everyone.

toddmorey 3y ago
They are simple powertrains fueled by complex and heavy battery chemistry. I think affordable for everyone will happen with the next generation of solid state batteries.
- stavros 3y ago
  What's complex about it? Isn't it 18650 cells welded together?
  - user_7832 3y ago
    I'd also love to hear what's the complexity about. To me the high costs are a side effect of EVs still being seen as luxury vehicles, and not specifically because EV tech is inherently costly.
    - stavros 3y ago
      I build RC planes as a hobby, and I regularly have to weld such batteries myself. Obviously the requirements in a commercial product are different, but I can't see what's so complicated about Li-ion batteries and their lifecycle. They seem an order of magnitude easier than all the tight-tolerance moving parts of an ICE that need a complicated computer controller just to fire properly.
    - Tade0 3y ago
      I suppose it's the chemistry that's going on in there. In principle it's all simple, but what exactly happens inside is not as well studied as combustion engines. Case in point: this year researchers found out that a type of tape used in li-ion batteries is actually not chemically stable in this environment and replacing it with a different material increased lifespan by 10% and decreased self-discharge by 70%: https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-tape-lithium-ion-batteries-battery-degradation.html https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-tape-lithium-ion-batteri... Plenty of other stories of this type - one of them brought LFP batteries into the limelight, because researchers figured out how to close to double their capacity.
      - stavros 3y ago
        Huh, interesting. We've used Li-ion batteries for decades, so I wouldn't have guessed we'd still have such fundamental things we didn't know about them.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

That's basically happening indeed. Companies like Stellantis and VW are already partnering with Chinese companies and especially in the EU there are now a growing number of options on the market that are interesting for people with smaller budgets. Stellantis (Fiat, Citroen, Opel, etc.) is launching lots of interesting new models in the EU lately. The new Citroen e-c3 is supposed to be priced around 23000 euro. That's a small family car, not a crazy amount of range but usable. The citroen ami, is only about 7000 euro and more of a glorified golf cart than a car. But for 7-8K it is pretty awesome and pretty handy for getting around town. Opel (also Stellantis) has a similar car called the Rocks-e that I saw in Berlin on the streets a few weeks ago. I think it sells for a similar price. It looks like more or less the same product with some minor differences. The whole notion that an electric car is just a battery with some wheels and not much more means that there are going to be a lot of companies racing to the bottom in terms of cost and form factors. The main constraint here is price and availability of batteries and other components. That market is growing and there's not shortage of demand for any of that.

Tade0 3y ago
I hope it goes in that direction because I'm this close to buying an actual, street legal golf cart - mostly so that it's easier to find a parking spot. I was hopeful for this: http://squadmobility.com/ http://squadmobility.com/ But they seem to have went dark - I saw one comment on YouTube asking (in Dutch) why aren't they responding to emails.