6 ms·

Top UN official in New York steps down citing genocide of Palestinian civilians

29 points by jlpcsl 3y ago

darthrupert 3y ago
I for one would prefer all words, but especially words like genocide have a meaning. Israel is hunting Hamas and engaging in self-defence, not commiting genocide.
- figmert 3y ago
  People keep saying self-defence for Israel, what about the Palestinians? Why can't they do self-defence? It is utterly ridiculous to hide behind that when Israel, on multiple occasions, has indiscriminately bombed Gaza under the guise of terrorist hunting. Turkey does the same thing in southeast Turkey. Anyway, let's takes out Hamas, why are Palestinians dying in the west bank? Hamas isn't there, are they? Let's stop giving the Israeli government excuses.
  - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
    > Why can't they do self-defence? Because striking first at civilians is not self-defence. Never has been.
    - jjgreen 3y ago
      "first" eh?
    - ant6n 3y ago
      One of the first massacre on civilians in this war was perpetrated by the Israeli side: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre …it apparently was one of the push factors in the original displacement of Palestinian Arabs in 1948, the descendants of whose refugees are now getting Bombed in Gazan refuge camps.
  - darthrupert 3y ago
    >Why can't they do self-defence? They can do self-defence. They don't do self-defence. Well, except currently as Israel is actually attacking them for once. >Anyway, let's takes out Hamas I'm with you there. So is IDF. >why are Palestinians dying in the west bank? Hamas isn't there, are they? They don't rule the West Bank like the rule over Gaza, but they certainly have a presence there.
jjgreen 3y ago
This place needs a [shadowbanned] tag, at #20 on the front-page for 5 minutes, then vanished.
benterix 3y ago
> He said that the UN had failed to prevent previous genocides against the Tutsis in Rwanda, Muslims in Bosnia, the Yazidi in Iraqi Kurdistan and the Rohingya in Myanmar At least the "Muslims in Bosnia" part has been dealt by with NATO effectively ending the war. But note it wasn't a peaceful solution: it involved 3 months of airstrikes and civilian casualties. This kind of approach will never work in Palestine.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
stoneman24 3y ago
“They make a desolation and call it peace.” Gaius Cornelius Tacitus Regardless of the words used, All I see and hear is the stories of the dead, maimed and traumatised on both sides. I hope that it stops soon but I’ve always been a optimist.
- TheChaplain 3y ago
  It will never stop. Ghazi Hamad, a high ranking Hamas member, vowed attacks will continue until Israel is annihilated.
  - workfromspace 3y ago
    (Not OP, but wondering,) Could someone please tell me why this post was flagged? This seems to be true, according to https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-leader-dismisses-Gaza-civilian-deaths-necessary-price-blood-boasts-terror-group-demonstrated-Israel-beatable-changing-Middle-East.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-lead...
    - jjgreen 3y ago
      Anything Israel-Palestine is flagged, in particular, as soon as it reaches the front page. I imagine an "IDF HN desk", in fact an Israeli tech-minded conscript in fatigues, refreshing the HN front-page once a minute, pasting offending URLs into a Slack channel for a team of like-minded volunteers across the world. Bored shitless, mostly playing with his phone and scratching his cods. Anyone with a more accurate information on the flagging operation, please correct me!
      - workfromspace 3y ago
        > Anything Israel-Palestine is flagged This makes sense. Thank you for your answer. > I imagine an "IDF HN desk" I would imagine other side (Hamas/Palestine) having this as well: which is even more reason for flame wars.
WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
I, for one, cannot help but notice that when Iran and every single organization it is enabling is proudly declaring that their whole raison d'être is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as it takes, or when Palestinians brandish Nazi symbols on their protests, the usual policy is to ignore any and all such things. Up to the point that BBC is reluctant to call Hamas terrorists. You don't see anyone stepping down precisely because October 7 happened, either. The same thing applies to the Russo-Ukrainian war, the whole thing bears huge marks of genocide/ethnocide on the occupied territories, and yet hardly anyone high-profile openly calls it that despite all marks being checked, and will likely just change subject when pressed — I guess it's bad for business. Same as with Uighurs, but it's so last decade. Boring! And we like cheap labor, admit it. Change the subject! Change the subject! I expect to have a lot of downvotes, which sort of proves my point further. Wrongthink! Only white people commit racism, only Israel does genociding, (blood libel allegations incoming) My deep suspicion is that the deep rooted antisemitism which used to be totally ok in 1920s and 1930s, had never gone away from Europe since the WW2. It's just that it became passé to flaunt it, and yet everyone has been doing it, in actions if not the words. And these days lots of groups got an opportunity to show their true colors openly.
- jjgreen 3y ago
  Up to the point that BBC is reluctant to call Hamas terrorists. The BBC is required by its charter to be impartial, it almost always reports "... Hama, designated a terrorist organisation by the UK government, ...", which is impartial and true. The word "terrorism" means simply "uses violence of which I don't approve", Hamas, the US army, the Israeli army do similar sort of things, so that "The US is a terrorist state", "Hamas is a terrorist organisation" and so on are not statements of fact, but of opinion. The BBC should not express such an opinion.
  - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
    I dunno, when you kidnap an unarmed civilian to further your ideology, and cut their head off while filming and publicizing the whole thing, then it's maybe just a highschool brawl and not terrorism at all.
sndman 3y ago
An understanding of events of October 7 starts with an understanding of the historical context of Palestine and Israel: most of the coverage of the events of October 7 deal with the symptoms of the violence and not the source. An understanding of the source of the violence, by no means justified, is needed. This history starts with an understanding of Zionism, an ideology that is racist, not in its origin, but in the way it manifested itself in the land of Mandatory Palestine. And this racism is part of the settler colonial movement where the logic of the elimination of the Native was activated. These elimination policies were in the DNA of the Zionist encounters with the Natives of Palestine in the late 19th century. They wanted as much of the land of Palestine as possible with as few of the Palestinians as possible. There was always the demographic dimension as well as the geographic dimension in the earliest policies of the Zionist movement and into what later became Israel. The more space the Zionists had, the less space the indigenous people had. These elimination policies could take different forms: genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and they take different forms in different places. What happened in Gaza cannot be taken out of this context of Zionists/Israeli elimination and the ethnic cleansing of half of the population of Palestine that took place in 1947-1949 and the destruction of over 500 villages. The ruins of some of these same destroyed villages where the attackers originated from, and were next to the kibbutzim that were attacked. None of this justifies the violence that took place on October 7 but is needed to understand the source of the violence. The source of this violence is the racist ideology, of a racist Zionist ideology that needs to eliminate the Native. Zionism is not unique in this regard and is similar to other European colonial settler movements that desired to eliminate the native populations on the land they colonized.
pxc 3y ago
I submitted this earlier it was nuked within minutes. Never even got to leave a comment. But allegations of ethnic cleansing which are aligned with US geopolitical interests have no trouble staying unflagged or making it to the front page here.

29 points by jlpcsl 3y ago

I for one would prefer all words, but especially words like genocide have a meaning. Israel is hunting Hamas and engaging in self-defence, not commiting genocide.

figmert 3y ago
People keep saying self-defence for Israel, what about the Palestinians? Why can't they do self-defence? It is utterly ridiculous to hide behind that when Israel, on multiple occasions, has indiscriminately bombed Gaza under the guise of terrorist hunting. Turkey does the same thing in southeast Turkey. Anyway, let's takes out Hamas, why are Palestinians dying in the west bank? Hamas isn't there, are they? Let's stop giving the Israeli government excuses.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  > Why can't they do self-defence? Because striking first at civilians is not self-defence. Never has been.
  - jjgreen 3y ago
    "first" eh?
  - ant6n 3y ago
    One of the first massacre on civilians in this war was perpetrated by the Israeli side: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre …it apparently was one of the push factors in the original displacement of Palestinian Arabs in 1948, the descendants of whose refugees are now getting Bombed in Gazan refuge camps.
- darthrupert 3y ago
  >Why can't they do self-defence? They can do self-defence. They don't do self-defence. Well, except currently as Israel is actually attacking them for once. >Anyway, let's takes out Hamas I'm with you there. So is IDF. >why are Palestinians dying in the west bank? Hamas isn't there, are they? They don't rule the West Bank like the rule over Gaza, but they certainly have a presence there.

jjgreen 3y ago

This place needs a [shadowbanned] tag, at #20 on the front-page for 5 minutes, then vanished.

benterix 3y ago

> He said that the UN had failed to prevent previous genocides against the Tutsis in Rwanda, Muslims in Bosnia, the Yazidi in Iraqi Kurdistan and the Rohingya in Myanmar At least the "Muslims in Bosnia" part has been dealt by with NATO effectively ending the war. But note it wasn't a peaceful solution: it involved 3 months of airstrikes and civilian casualties. This kind of approach will never work in Palestine.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

stoneman24 3y ago

“They make a desolation and call it peace.” Gaius Cornelius Tacitus Regardless of the words used, All I see and hear is the stories of the dead, maimed and traumatised on both sides. I hope that it stops soon but I’ve always been a optimist.

TheChaplain 3y ago
It will never stop. Ghazi Hamad, a high ranking Hamas member, vowed attacks will continue until Israel is annihilated.
- workfromspace 3y ago
  (Not OP, but wondering,) Could someone please tell me why this post was flagged? This seems to be true, according to https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-leader-dismisses-Gaza-civilian-deaths-necessary-price-blood-boasts-terror-group-demonstrated-Israel-beatable-changing-Middle-East.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-lead...
  - jjgreen 3y ago
    Anything Israel-Palestine is flagged, in particular, as soon as it reaches the front page. I imagine an "IDF HN desk", in fact an Israeli tech-minded conscript in fatigues, refreshing the HN front-page once a minute, pasting offending URLs into a Slack channel for a team of like-minded volunteers across the world. Bored shitless, mostly playing with his phone and scratching his cods. Anyone with a more accurate information on the flagging operation, please correct me!
    - workfromspace 3y ago
      > Anything Israel-Palestine is flagged This makes sense. Thank you for your answer. > I imagine an "IDF HN desk" I would imagine other side (Hamas/Palestine) having this as well: which is even more reason for flame wars.

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago

I, for one, cannot help but notice that when Iran and every single organization it is enabling is proudly declaring that their whole raison d'être is to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as it takes, or when Palestinians brandish Nazi symbols on their protests, the usual policy is to ignore any and all such things. Up to the point that BBC is reluctant to call Hamas terrorists. You don't see anyone stepping down precisely because October 7 happened, either. The same thing applies to the Russo-Ukrainian war, the whole thing bears huge marks of genocide/ethnocide on the occupied territories, and yet hardly anyone high-profile openly calls it that despite all marks being checked, and will likely just change subject when pressed — I guess it's bad for business. Same as with Uighurs, but it's so last decade. Boring! And we like cheap labor, admit it. Change the subject! Change the subject! I expect to have a lot of downvotes, which sort of proves my point further. Wrongthink! Only white people commit racism, only Israel does genociding, (blood libel allegations incoming) My deep suspicion is that the deep rooted antisemitism which used to be totally ok in 1920s and 1930s, had never gone away from Europe since the WW2. It's just that it became passé to flaunt it, and yet everyone has been doing it, in actions if not the words. And these days lots of groups got an opportunity to show their true colors openly.

jjgreen 3y ago
Up to the point that BBC is reluctant to call Hamas terrorists. The BBC is required by its charter to be impartial, it almost always reports "... Hama, designated a terrorist organisation by the UK government, ...", which is impartial and true. The word "terrorism" means simply "uses violence of which I don't approve", Hamas, the US army, the Israeli army do similar sort of things, so that "The US is a terrorist state", "Hamas is a terrorist organisation" and so on are not statements of fact, but of opinion. The BBC should not express such an opinion.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  I dunno, when you kidnap an unarmed civilian to further your ideology, and cut their head off while filming and publicizing the whole thing, then it's maybe just a highschool brawl and not terrorism at all.

sndman 3y ago

An understanding of events of October 7 starts with an understanding of the historical context of Palestine and Israel: most of the coverage of the events of October 7 deal with the symptoms of the violence and not the source. An understanding of the source of the violence, by no means justified, is needed. This history starts with an understanding of Zionism, an ideology that is racist, not in its origin, but in the way it manifested itself in the land of Mandatory Palestine. And this racism is part of the settler colonial movement where the logic of the elimination of the Native was activated. These elimination policies were in the DNA of the Zionist encounters with the Natives of Palestine in the late 19th century. They wanted as much of the land of Palestine as possible with as few of the Palestinians as possible. There was always the demographic dimension as well as the geographic dimension in the earliest policies of the Zionist movement and into what later became Israel. The more space the Zionists had, the less space the indigenous people had. These elimination policies could take different forms: genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and they take different forms in different places. What happened in Gaza cannot be taken out of this context of Zionists/Israeli elimination and the ethnic cleansing of half of the population of Palestine that took place in 1947-1949 and the destruction of over 500 villages. The ruins of some of these same destroyed villages where the attackers originated from, and were next to the kibbutzim that were attacked. None of this justifies the violence that took place on October 7 but is needed to understand the source of the violence. The source of this violence is the racist ideology, of a racist Zionist ideology that needs to eliminate the Native. Zionism is not unique in this regard and is similar to other European colonial settler movements that desired to eliminate the native populations on the land they colonized.

pxc 3y ago

I submitted this earlier it was nuked within minutes. Never even got to leave a comment. But allegations of ethnic cleansing which are aligned with US geopolitical interests have no trouble staying unflagged or making it to the front page here.