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- Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only - Electric cars are privacy nightmare - Electric cars can b

- Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only - Electric cars are privacy nightmare - Electric cars can be hacked (Hyunday and Kia could be stolen using USB cable). It is more vulnerable - There is still a ton of energy required to create a electric vehicle, and uses slave labour - EV is not plan to last a decade. Electronic parts do not last that long. You can easily find a decade old Mercedes - No real plan for battery disposal - Does not work well in winter - You cannot park it everywhere, as malls and garages will not allow it There are many downsides of having EV

k8sToGo 3y ago
Do you even own an EV? Because I do. Some of your points above are not even EV specific and others have solutions.
- renegat0x0 3y ago
  solutions like plans, that after 20 years something will be solved? good luck trusting politicians.
  - k8sToGo 3y ago
    No. They are already reality. Charging stations for example, can be ordered automatically to reduce charging output by electric company.
audunw 3y ago
> Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only The grid isn't ready for anything we're doing the next 20 years. That goes without saying: the grid was built for the needs of the present, not for the needs several decades ahead. The grid will be upgraded to handle it, just like the grid has been upgraded many times in the past to deal with increased demand. The region around Oslo has hundreds of thousands of EVs without any upgrades to the grid. The Norwegian government has studied the issue and found that no grid upgrades are even needed if most cars charge at night. There's lots of spare capacity at night. I have my car charging set up to be controlled by the electric company based on price right now. It's super easy to set up. > Electric cars are privacy nightmare False. The drive train has absolutely nothing to do with privacy. SOME modern cars are a privacy nightmare. There are plenty of "smart" ICE vehicles too. > Electric cars can be hacked (Hyunday and Kia could be stolen using USB cable). It is more vulnerable False. There's no difference between EV and modern ICE here. Both are started electronically these days, and that can make them less vulnerable than older cars since you can have cryptographic verification of your key. > There is still a ton of energy required to create a electric vehicle True, but over the whole lifetime the energy required is less. When the battery is recycled and a second EV created from the materials, the energy needed is FAR less. > and uses slave labour I'd say false. Anything we manufacture has a risk that the materials were unethically mined. Since EV car makers care about their image, they tend to audit their supply chain to reduce the chance of unethical mining. Do you think the company refining your gasoline care if the cobalt used in refining gasoline comes from slave labor? What about the cobalt going into your metal alloys? Nobody cares, because nobody is trying to use "cobalt slave labour" to attack those industries. But fossil fuel lobbies are constantly pushing this as an argument against EVs. > EV is not plan to last a decade. Electronic parts do not last that long. You can easily find a decade old Mercedes False. We have plenty of decade old EVs here in Norway. The Nissan Leaf came out in 2011 and there's plenty of them here. Yes, quite few of them have degraded too much, and needs a new battery. But that's because they started out with a tiny battery (gets cycled more often), had an old battery chemistry and bad BMS with no cooling. Even if the battery must be replaced, the rest of the car is totally fine. An old EV with a new battery is MUCH more reliable than an old ICE car. Since newer batteries are better, you can also end up with a car that's better - with longer range - than when it was new. My old Kia Soul EV is 7 years old and has zero issues, and not much degradation. My neighbors decade old ICE car just broke down, and they're borrowing our old EV right now. (We have a second newer one as well) Solid state electronic parts can last multiple decades. Electric motors can essentially last forever (there are EVs from the early 1900s still working with no motor refurbishment). Mechanical parts generally do not last long without having to be refurbished/replaced. It's an inherent problem when you have moving parts rubbing against each other. > No real plan for battery disposal Completely false. EU has battery recycling regulations, and EV battery recycling is already up and running at an industrial scale. > Does not work well in winter False. I drive my EV to my moms cabin in deep snow every winter. Modern EVs are MUCH better than ICE cars in winter. Yes, the range is shorter. But try driving a modern AWD EV in snow. The traction is insanely good. That's what being able to adjust the torque precisely 100s of times a second gets you. Yes, the range of my older 7yo old EV is rather short in winter. But nobody makes EVs with such a small battery anymore. And it's still much better than an ICE for short trips around town and commutes to work. > You cannot park it everywhere, as malls and garages will not allow it Hilarious. EVs catch fire far less often than ICE cars. The statistics are crystal clear on this. An airport car garage burned down in Norway. Started by a spontaneous fire in an ICE car. It was also full of EVs, and despite being surrounded by a firey hellscape, NOT A SINGLE EV BATTERY PACK CAUGHT FIRE. Can you imagine if every car was EV? If there's no gasoline to fuel the fire, it might not have spread as fast, and it might be easier to extinguish the fire before the whole building burned down. > There are many downsides of having EV There are a few. But there are way more downsides with ICE. Most of all: you are literally poisoning yourself and your neighbors by driving one. The air quality around Oslo has noticeably improved the last few years.
- renegat0x0 3y ago
  1) The grid - will be updated. I know that, but it is, propaganda. We do not know how much of it will be upgraded and when. You write about Oslo. I write about Poland, where electric infrastructure is from 70s and 80s. Oslo will not save the world. Yesterday I have read article from Pakistan observer that there are 62 factories that were burning plastic waste and tires. What you do does not matter. Source: https://pakobserver.net/62-factories-cause-smog-by-burning-plastic-waste-tires https://pakobserver.net/62-factories-cause-smog-by-burning-p... 2) About cars being hacked. There is a major difference between my old combustion car and modern EV. I know that modern cars could have gone through enshittification. So you're wrong here again. Source: https://www.bolnews.com/technology/2022/08/hyundai-and-kia-cars-can-be-stolen-using-a-usb-cable/ https://www.bolnews.com/technology/2022/08/hyundai-and-kia-c... Source2: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67005620 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67005620 - EV are prone to software problems 3) About slave labor: You are just wrong. Source: https://www.dailywire.com/news/joe-rogans-podcast-shows-horrifying-slave-conditions-used-to-mine-materials-needed-for-electric-cars https://www.dailywire.com/news/joe-rogans-podcast-shows-horr... For each and every point I could find a source, but I am not sure if it is worth it. Some folks are so brain washed that any article they will deem not worthy, treat as misinformation. It is just they do not agree with the view point, therefore there will be no scientific data enough for them, no explanation good enough. Yet for these folks vague plans of upgrades for 20 years, illusions of fixing the world, 0 net pledges after x years, greenwashing makes perfect sense for them. It is more like people are hearing both sides of argument, but not hearing because they do not want to hear.
  - zhdc1 3y ago
    > The grid - will be updated. I know that, but it is, propaganda. We do not know how much of it will be upgraded and when. You write about Oslo. I write about Poland, where electric infrastructure is from 70s and 80s. EVs aren't going to kill it. Mass A/C adoption in response to global warming is a different issue entirely.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    Everything you claim the other poster to be wrong about is actually you being wrong, and you’re calling them brainwashed? Most grids are using less electricity today than they did 20 years ago due to more efficient devices that require electricity. The hacking and runaway vehicle have nothing to do with the drivetrain at all. Nothing. LFP batteries contain no cobalt. You will still get cobalt used in other places of course, but if you’re worried about slave cobalt then an EV with an LFP battery is the best option since refining petroleum uses cobalt.
thebruce87m 3y ago
This is the sort of thing I see on Facebook all the time. Each one based on half truths and falsehoods. Here’s the grid (or mine anyway) saying it will be fine: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele... The privacy and hacking are not limited to EVs. There is a ton of energy needed to make any vehicle. My EV has used almost 100% renewable energy since day 1 on off-peak rates on a special tariff. Here’s my normal grid for when I have to charge during the day: https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ Slave labour? You mean for cobalt? LFP batteries don’t use cobalt. It will still be needed for some common parts in EVs and ICE cars. And of course for refining petroleum. Electronic parts don’t last long? Not even sure what that means. Mechanical parts don’t last forever either. Battery reuse is a thing. Battery recycling is a thing. LFP batteries get even more cycles than NMC. Reduced range in winter? I’ll use 13% per day instead of 10%? My car will be preheated every morning with full range. I have never seen a place I can’t park in the UK. We recently had a multi story car park burn down and everyone said it was an EV until a video came out of a burning diesel car that started it. There was also the ship that went on fire that everyone blamed on an EV until they recovered all of the EVs from a lower floor unharmed. I’m not surprised that some might believe the misinformation though.

k8sToGo 3y ago

Do you even own an EV? Because I do. Some of your points above are not even EV specific and others have solutions.

renegat0x0 3y ago
solutions like plans, that after 20 years something will be solved? good luck trusting politicians.
- k8sToGo 3y ago
  No. They are already reality. Charging stations for example, can be ordered automatically to reduce charging output by electric company.

audunw 3y ago

> Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only The grid isn't ready for anything we're doing the next 20 years. That goes without saying: the grid was built for the needs of the present, not for the needs several decades ahead. The grid will be upgraded to handle it, just like the grid has been upgraded many times in the past to deal with increased demand. The region around Oslo has hundreds of thousands of EVs without any upgrades to the grid. The Norwegian government has studied the issue and found that no grid upgrades are even needed if most cars charge at night. There's lots of spare capacity at night. I have my car charging set up to be controlled by the electric company based on price right now. It's super easy to set up. > Electric cars are privacy nightmare False. The drive train has absolutely nothing to do with privacy. SOME modern cars are a privacy nightmare. There are plenty of "smart" ICE vehicles too. > Electric cars can be hacked (Hyunday and Kia could be stolen using USB cable). It is more vulnerable False. There's no difference between EV and modern ICE here. Both are started electronically these days, and that can make them less vulnerable than older cars since you can have cryptographic verification of your key. > There is still a ton of energy required to create a electric vehicle True, but over the whole lifetime the energy required is less. When the battery is recycled and a second EV created from the materials, the energy needed is FAR less. > and uses slave labour I'd say false. Anything we manufacture has a risk that the materials were unethically mined. Since EV car makers care about their image, they tend to audit their supply chain to reduce the chance of unethical mining. Do you think the company refining your gasoline care if the cobalt used in refining gasoline comes from slave labor? What about the cobalt going into your metal alloys? Nobody cares, because nobody is trying to use "cobalt slave labour" to attack those industries. But fossil fuel lobbies are constantly pushing this as an argument against EVs. > EV is not plan to last a decade. Electronic parts do not last that long. You can easily find a decade old Mercedes False. We have plenty of decade old EVs here in Norway. The Nissan Leaf came out in 2011 and there's plenty of them here. Yes, quite few of them have degraded too much, and needs a new battery. But that's because they started out with a tiny battery (gets cycled more often), had an old battery chemistry and bad BMS with no cooling. Even if the battery must be replaced, the rest of the car is totally fine. An old EV with a new battery is MUCH more reliable than an old ICE car. Since newer batteries are better, you can also end up with a car that's better - with longer range - than when it was new. My old Kia Soul EV is 7 years old and has zero issues, and not much degradation. My neighbors decade old ICE car just broke down, and they're borrowing our old EV right now. (We have a second newer one as well) Solid state electronic parts can last multiple decades. Electric motors can essentially last forever (there are EVs from the early 1900s still working with no motor refurbishment). Mechanical parts generally do not last long without having to be refurbished/replaced. It's an inherent problem when you have moving parts rubbing against each other. > No real plan for battery disposal Completely false. EU has battery recycling regulations, and EV battery recycling is already up and running at an industrial scale. > Does not work well in winter False. I drive my EV to my moms cabin in deep snow every winter. Modern EVs are MUCH better than ICE cars in winter. Yes, the range is shorter. But try driving a modern AWD EV in snow. The traction is insanely good. That's what being able to adjust the torque precisely 100s of times a second gets you. Yes, the range of my older 7yo old EV is rather short in winter. But nobody makes EVs with such a small battery anymore. And it's still much better than an ICE for short trips around town and commutes to work. > You cannot park it everywhere, as malls and garages will not allow it Hilarious. EVs catch fire far less often than ICE cars. The statistics are crystal clear on this. An airport car garage burned down in Norway. Started by a spontaneous fire in an ICE car. It was also full of EVs, and despite being surrounded by a firey hellscape, NOT A SINGLE EV BATTERY PACK CAUGHT FIRE. Can you imagine if every car was EV? If there's no gasoline to fuel the fire, it might not have spread as fast, and it might be easier to extinguish the fire before the whole building burned down. > There are many downsides of having EV There are a few. But there are way more downsides with ICE. Most of all: you are literally poisoning yourself and your neighbors by driving one. The air quality around Oslo has noticeably improved the last few years.

renegat0x0 3y ago
1) The grid - will be updated. I know that, but it is, propaganda. We do not know how much of it will be upgraded and when. You write about Oslo. I write about Poland, where electric infrastructure is from 70s and 80s. Oslo will not save the world. Yesterday I have read article from Pakistan observer that there are 62 factories that were burning plastic waste and tires. What you do does not matter. Source: https://pakobserver.net/62-factories-cause-smog-by-burning-plastic-waste-tires https://pakobserver.net/62-factories-cause-smog-by-burning-p... 2) About cars being hacked. There is a major difference between my old combustion car and modern EV. I know that modern cars could have gone through enshittification. So you're wrong here again. Source: https://www.bolnews.com/technology/2022/08/hyundai-and-kia-cars-can-be-stolen-using-a-usb-cable/ https://www.bolnews.com/technology/2022/08/hyundai-and-kia-c... Source2: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67005620 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67005620 - EV are prone to software problems 3) About slave labor: You are just wrong. Source: https://www.dailywire.com/news/joe-rogans-podcast-shows-horrifying-slave-conditions-used-to-mine-materials-needed-for-electric-cars https://www.dailywire.com/news/joe-rogans-podcast-shows-horr... For each and every point I could find a source, but I am not sure if it is worth it. Some folks are so brain washed that any article they will deem not worthy, treat as misinformation. It is just they do not agree with the view point, therefore there will be no scientific data enough for them, no explanation good enough. Yet for these folks vague plans of upgrades for 20 years, illusions of fixing the world, 0 net pledges after x years, greenwashing makes perfect sense for them. It is more like people are hearing both sides of argument, but not hearing because they do not want to hear.
- zhdc1 3y ago
  > The grid - will be updated. I know that, but it is, propaganda. We do not know how much of it will be upgraded and when. You write about Oslo. I write about Poland, where electric infrastructure is from 70s and 80s. EVs aren't going to kill it. Mass A/C adoption in response to global warming is a different issue entirely.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Everything you claim the other poster to be wrong about is actually you being wrong, and you’re calling them brainwashed? Most grids are using less electricity today than they did 20 years ago due to more efficient devices that require electricity. The hacking and runaway vehicle have nothing to do with the drivetrain at all. Nothing. LFP batteries contain no cobalt. You will still get cobalt used in other places of course, but if you’re worried about slave cobalt then an EV with an LFP battery is the best option since refining petroleum uses cobalt.

thebruce87m 3y ago

This is the sort of thing I see on Facebook all the time. Each one based on half truths and falsehoods. Here’s the grid (or mine anyway) saying it will be fine: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele... The privacy and hacking are not limited to EVs. There is a ton of energy needed to make any vehicle. My EV has used almost 100% renewable energy since day 1 on off-peak rates on a special tariff. Here’s my normal grid for when I have to charge during the day: https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/ Slave labour? You mean for cobalt? LFP batteries don’t use cobalt. It will still be needed for some common parts in EVs and ICE cars. And of course for refining petroleum. Electronic parts don’t last long? Not even sure what that means. Mechanical parts don’t last forever either. Battery reuse is a thing. Battery recycling is a thing. LFP batteries get even more cycles than NMC. Reduced range in winter? I’ll use 13% per day instead of 10%? My car will be preheated every morning with full range. I have never seen a place I can’t park in the UK. We recently had a multi story car park burn down and everyone said it was an EV until a video came out of a burning diesel car that started it. There was also the ship that went on fire that everyone blamed on an EV until they recovered all of the EVs from a lower floor unharmed. I’m not surprised that some might believe the misinformation though.