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OK, separate the drive train and just focus on the engine. That's completely fair. All engines need to distribute power to the wheels and those parts are identi

OK, separate the drive train and just focus on the engine. That's completely fair. All engines need to distribute power to the wheels and those parts are identical. If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part. A combustion engine easily has an "order of magnitude" more components. And I'm not even counting the gearbox here, which - in a modern automatic car - is clockwork levels of crazy gearing and technology.

01100011 3y ago
My father in law is a mechanic. He just changed a cooling pump and coolant on an EV. There are also other motors to actuate various components.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  The actual engine is just magnets and driveshaft. Very little can go wrong. It either works or doesn't. A combustion engine has camshafts and pistons and valve lifters and timing chains (or belts) and dozens more. Every single of those moving parts is a potential failure mode. Add to that all the electronics and sensors we need to run a modern combustion engine, the complexity goes up exponentially. Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds.
  - 01100011 3y ago
    I keep hearing about these things from people telling me how great it is that EVs have so few moving parts yet in almost 3 decades of owning ICE vehicles I've never had to do more repair work under the hood than change a starter, a water pump and an alternator(once each). I've been stranded thanks to bad software, but that's not specific to ICE. Owning an ICE isn't all that much work. Oh wait, oil changes, but those are pretty easy.
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      The last time I owned an ICE vehicle (a diesel VW Passat station wagon) I had to replace during the 4(?) years I owned it: - Diesel Particulate filter - Turbo - Clutch - Dual-mass Flywheel - Radiator Each was 1000-2000€ except for the radiator. The DPF would've been a 2k€ operation, but I found a sketchy mechanic who just drilled it out and chipped the car to think the DPF was just fine. I paid in cash, didn't get a receipt =) Then a tiny hex shaft broke in the bottom of the engine. It was the only thing running the oil pump to the engine and the only official repair was to replace the whole bottom part of the engine as a whole. Estimate: 2000€++. It was fixed with liquid metal or something by a different sketchy car mechanic and I sold it immediately.
    - magicalhippo 3y ago
      It isn't more work until it is. Modern ICEs have been refined for over 100 years. Most are very reliable. But if a timing belt or valve breaks, or the automatic transmission, or... yeah you're looking at a very, very expensive repair most of the time.
      - user_7832 3y ago
        Yeah, a well maintained reliable ICE engine isn't a problem but once issues start coming, they don't stop.
        theshrike79 3y ago
        And there's the "well maintained" -bit. Unless you know to do it yourself, you're gonna get gouged by Jiffy Lube or something.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      In the years of my car ownership I've seen failing engine seals, multiple kinds of EGR failures, catalytic converter degradation, intake manifold baffle solenoids fail, fuel pump failures, thermostat failures, and more. And that's just failures, not all the preventative maintenance like changing spark plugs, changing timing belts, fluid replacements, valve clearance adjustments, and more. Meanwhile the maintenance schedule for my EV drive train is a fluid change every 150,000mi.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds. Agreed! If neither electric nor IC engines existed and we started developing both from scratch today, clearly the electric motors would be reliable within a year (I'm guessing, but probably) and the IC engines would take decades of development and manufacturing maturity to match the reliability. But, that's not the world where we are. The ICE does have more than a century of development already so Honda/Mazda/Toyota/etc can manufacture an IC engine that'll go 200K+ miles with zero problems, so for a consumer buying a car today, the powerplant is not the source of trouble (whether EV or ICE). It's the rest of the car that needs repairs. (An ICE engine should not have any explosions occurring, that's pinging and will damage the engine. It needs to be a controlled burn. But I'm nitpicking on the word.)
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      Isn't the difference between a controlled burn and explosion just the outcome? If everything is fine, it was controlled, otherwise it was an explosion =) In my opinion the future will be an EV drivetrain. The only question is how do we store the energy to run the electric engines. Batteries are a decent solution, but I'd love to see more range extenders like the Chevy Volt / Opel Ampera. Put in a 10-20kW battery, a 20-40 litre gas/diesel tank and a highly optimised generator that only charges the batteries. Ta-dah, best of both worlds. You've got a reliable engine (steady RPM, steady output, no need to turbo it for power etc.) and a drivetrain that produces instant torque and is highly reliable.
Someone 3y ago
> If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part. They have four wheels (with, if you’re nitpicking, have many parts: the wheel itself, the tire, disc brake, brake pads, electronics for ABS, screws to put them together), and suspension (probably a more heavy one than ICE cars), don’t they? (and doors and a trunk that can be opened, and handles to open the doors and trunk, and a steering wheel that has to be turned, and sun visors, and fans for cooling and heating, and, for modern cars, AC, likely with moving parts, and probably a few more moving parts)
- theshrike79 3y ago
  The "EV" was referring to the electric motor. We're talking about engines here, not the moving parts in the seats. The actual electric MOTOR has one moving part. An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model.
  - Someone 3y ago
    Sorry, misread your statement because it used the term EV incorrectly and replied to a statement that said the number of parts in an engine doesn’t matter because that tech is so well-understood that it rarely breaks down. Because of that, I think saying the engine has only one moving part isn’t a good argument in a discussion of “Electric cars require much less maintenance than ICE cars”
  - jjav 3y ago
    > An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model. Can you tell me which ICE has thousands of moving parts? I've rebuilt several engines and can't think of anything that comes close. In fact I have a fully disassembled (top and bottom) 4 cylinder engine sitting in the garage as a long term project and I'm pretty sure it's less than a hundred parts, although I haven't really counted. Certainly not multiple hundreds.
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    There's a manner of thinking wherein a car's engine is a part that you replace if it breaks. The fact that it has a lot of components inside it does not matter, from a certain point of view. One or a million, if it breaks, you yank it and replace it. Another point of view of course is that each piece is one more way to break.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

01100011 3y ago

My father in law is a mechanic. He just changed a cooling pump and coolant on an EV. There are also other motors to actuate various components.

theshrike79 3y ago
The actual engine is just magnets and driveshaft. Very little can go wrong. It either works or doesn't. A combustion engine has camshafts and pistons and valve lifters and timing chains (or belts) and dozens more. Every single of those moving parts is a potential failure mode. Add to that all the electronics and sensors we need to run a modern combustion engine, the complexity goes up exponentially. Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds.
- 01100011 3y ago
  I keep hearing about these things from people telling me how great it is that EVs have so few moving parts yet in almost 3 decades of owning ICE vehicles I've never had to do more repair work under the hood than change a starter, a water pump and an alternator(once each). I've been stranded thanks to bad software, but that's not specific to ICE. Owning an ICE isn't all that much work. Oh wait, oil changes, but those are pretty easy.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    The last time I owned an ICE vehicle (a diesel VW Passat station wagon) I had to replace during the 4(?) years I owned it: - Diesel Particulate filter - Turbo - Clutch - Dual-mass Flywheel - Radiator Each was 1000-2000€ except for the radiator. The DPF would've been a 2k€ operation, but I found a sketchy mechanic who just drilled it out and chipped the car to think the DPF was just fine. I paid in cash, didn't get a receipt =) Then a tiny hex shaft broke in the bottom of the engine. It was the only thing running the oil pump to the engine and the only official repair was to replace the whole bottom part of the engine as a whole. Estimate: 2000€++. It was fixed with liquid metal or something by a different sketchy car mechanic and I sold it immediately.
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    It isn't more work until it is. Modern ICEs have been refined for over 100 years. Most are very reliable. But if a timing belt or valve breaks, or the automatic transmission, or... yeah you're looking at a very, very expensive repair most of the time.
    - user_7832 3y ago
      Yeah, a well maintained reliable ICE engine isn't a problem but once issues start coming, they don't stop.
      - theshrike79 3y ago
        And there's the "well maintained" -bit. Unless you know to do it yourself, you're gonna get gouged by Jiffy Lube or something.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    In the years of my car ownership I've seen failing engine seals, multiple kinds of EGR failures, catalytic converter degradation, intake manifold baffle solenoids fail, fuel pump failures, thermostat failures, and more. And that's just failures, not all the preventative maintenance like changing spark plugs, changing timing belts, fluid replacements, valve clearance adjustments, and more. Meanwhile the maintenance schedule for my EV drive train is a fluid change every 150,000mi.
- jjav 3y ago
  > Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds. Agreed! If neither electric nor IC engines existed and we started developing both from scratch today, clearly the electric motors would be reliable within a year (I'm guessing, but probably) and the IC engines would take decades of development and manufacturing maturity to match the reliability. But, that's not the world where we are. The ICE does have more than a century of development already so Honda/Mazda/Toyota/etc can manufacture an IC engine that'll go 200K+ miles with zero problems, so for a consumer buying a car today, the powerplant is not the source of trouble (whether EV or ICE). It's the rest of the car that needs repairs. (An ICE engine should not have any explosions occurring, that's pinging and will damage the engine. It needs to be a controlled burn. But I'm nitpicking on the word.)
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    Isn't the difference between a controlled burn and explosion just the outcome? If everything is fine, it was controlled, otherwise it was an explosion =) In my opinion the future will be an EV drivetrain. The only question is how do we store the energy to run the electric engines. Batteries are a decent solution, but I'd love to see more range extenders like the Chevy Volt / Opel Ampera. Put in a 10-20kW battery, a 20-40 litre gas/diesel tank and a highly optimised generator that only charges the batteries. Ta-dah, best of both worlds. You've got a reliable engine (steady RPM, steady output, no need to turbo it for power etc.) and a drivetrain that produces instant torque and is highly reliable.

Someone 3y ago

> If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part. They have four wheels (with, if you’re nitpicking, have many parts: the wheel itself, the tire, disc brake, brake pads, electronics for ABS, screws to put them together), and suspension (probably a more heavy one than ICE cars), don’t they? (and doors and a trunk that can be opened, and handles to open the doors and trunk, and a steering wheel that has to be turned, and sun visors, and fans for cooling and heating, and, for modern cars, AC, likely with moving parts, and probably a few more moving parts)

theshrike79 3y ago
The "EV" was referring to the electric motor. We're talking about engines here, not the moving parts in the seats. The actual electric MOTOR has one moving part. An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model.
- Someone 3y ago
  Sorry, misread your statement because it used the term EV incorrectly and replied to a statement that said the number of parts in an engine doesn’t matter because that tech is so well-understood that it rarely breaks down. Because of that, I think saying the engine has only one moving part isn’t a good argument in a discussion of “Electric cars require much less maintenance than ICE cars”
- jjav 3y ago
  > An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model. Can you tell me which ICE has thousands of moving parts? I've rebuilt several engines and can't think of anything that comes close. In fact I have a fully disassembled (top and bottom) 4 cylinder engine sitting in the garage as a long term project and I'm pretty sure it's less than a hundred parts, although I haven't really counted. Certainly not multiple hundreds.
- singleshot_ 3y ago
  There's a manner of thinking wherein a car's engine is a part that you replace if it breaks. The fact that it has a lot of components inside it does not matter, from a certain point of view. One or a million, if it breaks, you yank it and replace it. Another point of view of course is that each piece is one more way to break.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]