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You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all p

You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all pieces of shit, but just that’s the only thing people in the US buy from US manufacturers because no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans. So of course they were handed this project by the feds to expand their EV offerings and completely shit the bed. They’ve been spending decades competing on making the most fuel unfriendly vehicles on the planet. I don’t want an EV, but if I did, American (including Tesla) would be the last place I looked.

logifail 3y ago
> no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans (Genuine) Q: Why is it that the rest of the world manages just fine without needing full size diesel pickups? Over here even tradespeople drive panel vans, not pickups.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  "But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!" Yea, you could do that with a 90's Toyota Hilux too and it was 75% smaller =) Also you can fit that exact same sheet in a van and it's covered from the elements, along with your tools. It's all about image. Americans think van = "free candy child molester" or "FBI stakeout" and minivan = "soccer mom", which is bad for some reason. Thus, everybody drives HUGE TRUCKS or SUVs, because they've been marketed as cool for 20+ years. Even though a proper mini van would do the exact same thing in a smaller, more efficient package. (also huge trucks are exempt from environmental standards because of a legal fuckup they refuse to fix and thus better profits for the manufacturer)
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    > "But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!" You actually can’t fit full sheet goods (4’x8’) into 99% of pickups, there are very few pickups on the road with full-size (8’) beds that can fit sheet goods, most of them have ridiculously short beds, like 5’ long. Take a look at this Chevy truck poster that shows the silhouette by generation, there’s almost no bed on new pickup trucks: https://customcarposters.com/products/chevy-pickup-truck-poster-profile https://customcarposters.com/products/chevy-pickup-truck-pos...
    - AlexandrB 3y ago
      Yes, it's ridiculous. Modern trucks are SUVs with an open trunk.
      - theshrike79 3y ago
        And most SUVs are just minivans with a meaner case and bigger rims :)
    - rurp 3y ago
      The shortening of pickup truck beds over the past few decades is such a joke. It reveals how many of the claims about needing a truck for practical reasons are bs. Nowadays they are mostly inefficient vans that people happen to think look cooler.
      - DangitBobby 3y ago
        There are lots of things you can put on the back of a truck without fear that are too dirty/grimy/smelly/wet to be comfortable throwing in the back of the van. Most of the "work" an American truck sees is light yard work and maybe moving around dirt, seed, mulch, lawn decorations, or small machines. The rest is fully recreational or stylistic. Trucks are really, really nice to have and no one would be judgemental about whether you "really need one" if it weren't for global warming. Most Americans also couldn't give less of a shit about global warming no matter what they say.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  Ground clearance and 4-wheel drive mostly. Depending on where you live in the US, the scope of non-paved surfaces you may need to drive on occasionally can be quite a bit larger than most of the developed world. I used to have a cheap second car, a full-size 4WD Bronco, that I used for purposes that might require it when I lived in the US mountain west. During winter or when going over some unpaved mountain passes, I'd use the Bronco. In some areas even a good high-clearance AWD like a Subaru was taking a risk. Many people don't need it and most people don't need it all the time, but when you need it you need it. There are well over a million miles of unpaved roads and highways in the US. These usually have insufficient traffic to justify the cost of putting in a proper road bed. Equally, if you do get stuck out there because of poor road conditions, you may be stranded for a long time. American trucks, for good or ill, are designed to drive on these kinds of roads all day without falling apart. I have a high-clearance AWD today and have a lot of experience driving on these types of roads. There are still occasional times when I "nope"-out of a road and turn around due to road conditions that really recommend a proper 4WD truck. It has happened in more parts of the US than I think people expect. EDIT: Another common use case in some parts of the US is towing heavy things like boats, in places where every other person seems to own boats or other types of large vehicle trailers. Never my use case though.
  - rurp 3y ago
    This applies to some people but I think is really overstating things. Only ~10% of 4x4 vehicles ever get driven offroad, and most of the US population has paved roads everywhere they want to go. Vehicles that get driven offroad invariably get a lot of scratches, mud, etc, and the vast majority of trucks I see around town are absolutely pristine in that regard. There are plenty of legit use cases for a high clearance 4x4, but I think the vast majority of people claiming that they need one are being disingenuous, and really just want to feel like their commuter car is cool.
- theryan 3y ago
  Diesel trucks tow heavy equipment (10k+ lbs) very fuel efficiently which is a common use-case in the states without needing to resort to a semi. Where I live a large number of people also own travel trailers and boats, which also lend themselves to diesel pickups. I own a smaller truck myself (Ford Maverick) and tow a ~3000lb trailer with it regularly in the summer. My fuel economy goes from 30 mpg -> 11 mpg while towing. If I had a diesel, it would have virtually zero impact on mpg.
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  My take: it’s actually really awful trying to tow a trailer through the mountains without a diesel pickup. Now, most people aren’t doing that every day, every year or ever, but a person thinks “what if I ever need to tow my airstream through the Rockies like they show on those commercials?” And they buy the vehicle with the most utility. Other places that have mountainous regions, like South America, do have a lot more diesel trucks and 4x4s, so geographic region does play a part.
qwerpy 3y ago
Curious why the American car hate. I drove a Honda for more than a decade and thought I'd be a Honda driver for life, until I got a Tesla. I love it. From now on I'll be getting Teslas or Rivians or whatever else premium EVs happen to be the best, regardless of whether they're American, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, German, etc.
- bluedino 3y ago
  American car means the 'big three' automakers. GMC/Chevrolet/Buick, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/RAM, or Ford/Lincoln
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  Big three makers have very poor average quality, often ending up at the bottom of reliability lists. Tesla, from my expertise as a car builder, is just very sloppy. Poor panel fitment, door alignment, chintzy cheap materials for the price, and ultimately the smoke and mirror show that is FSD. Even if you manage to find one without all these issues, you still have a power source that essentially expires after 10 years and costs as much as a car to replace.
  - qwerpy 3y ago
    Yeah it's really just the "EV" part that I like about the Tesla. Not ever having to pay for gas at a gas station and the fast acceleration. If just Toyota or Honda would release a long range mid/large electric SUV or van, not make me deal with dealership salespeople to get one, and make them easy to get, I'd get one of those next.
    - dclowd9901 3y ago
      I’m right there with you. I have no idea why they’re dragging their feet on it.
yvdriess 3y ago
> You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all pieces of shit, but just that’s the only thing people in the US buy from US manufacturers because no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans. That's because of protectionist laws, aka the chicken tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax Asian/European manufacturers were squeezed out of the light truck market. US manufacturers then had this lucrative niche they marketed the hell out of.
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  I had no idea this was a thing. That explains it.

logifail 3y ago

> no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans (Genuine) Q: Why is it that the rest of the world manages just fine without needing full size diesel pickups? Over here even tradespeople drive panel vans, not pickups.

theshrike79 3y ago
"But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!" Yea, you could do that with a 90's Toyota Hilux too and it was 75% smaller =) Also you can fit that exact same sheet in a van and it's covered from the elements, along with your tools. It's all about image. Americans think van = "free candy child molester" or "FBI stakeout" and minivan = "soccer mom", which is bad for some reason. Thus, everybody drives HUGE TRUCKS or SUVs, because they've been marketed as cool for 20+ years. Even though a proper mini van would do the exact same thing in a smaller, more efficient package. (also huge trucks are exempt from environmental standards because of a legal fuckup they refuse to fix and thus better profits for the manufacturer)
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  > "But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!" You actually can’t fit full sheet goods (4’x8’) into 99% of pickups, there are very few pickups on the road with full-size (8’) beds that can fit sheet goods, most of them have ridiculously short beds, like 5’ long. Take a look at this Chevy truck poster that shows the silhouette by generation, there’s almost no bed on new pickup trucks: https://customcarposters.com/products/chevy-pickup-truck-poster-profile https://customcarposters.com/products/chevy-pickup-truck-pos...
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    Yes, it's ridiculous. Modern trucks are SUVs with an open trunk.
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      And most SUVs are just minivans with a meaner case and bigger rims :)
  - rurp 3y ago
    The shortening of pickup truck beds over the past few decades is such a joke. It reveals how many of the claims about needing a truck for practical reasons are bs. Nowadays they are mostly inefficient vans that people happen to think look cooler.
    - DangitBobby 3y ago
      There are lots of things you can put on the back of a truck without fear that are too dirty/grimy/smelly/wet to be comfortable throwing in the back of the van. Most of the "work" an American truck sees is light yard work and maybe moving around dirt, seed, mulch, lawn decorations, or small machines. The rest is fully recreational or stylistic. Trucks are really, really nice to have and no one would be judgemental about whether you "really need one" if it weren't for global warming. Most Americans also couldn't give less of a shit about global warming no matter what they say.
jandrewrogers 3y ago
Ground clearance and 4-wheel drive mostly. Depending on where you live in the US, the scope of non-paved surfaces you may need to drive on occasionally can be quite a bit larger than most of the developed world. I used to have a cheap second car, a full-size 4WD Bronco, that I used for purposes that might require it when I lived in the US mountain west. During winter or when going over some unpaved mountain passes, I'd use the Bronco. In some areas even a good high-clearance AWD like a Subaru was taking a risk. Many people don't need it and most people don't need it all the time, but when you need it you need it. There are well over a million miles of unpaved roads and highways in the US. These usually have insufficient traffic to justify the cost of putting in a proper road bed. Equally, if you do get stuck out there because of poor road conditions, you may be stranded for a long time. American trucks, for good or ill, are designed to drive on these kinds of roads all day without falling apart. I have a high-clearance AWD today and have a lot of experience driving on these types of roads. There are still occasional times when I "nope"-out of a road and turn around due to road conditions that really recommend a proper 4WD truck. It has happened in more parts of the US than I think people expect. EDIT: Another common use case in some parts of the US is towing heavy things like boats, in places where every other person seems to own boats or other types of large vehicle trailers. Never my use case though.
- rurp 3y ago
  This applies to some people but I think is really overstating things. Only ~10% of 4x4 vehicles ever get driven offroad, and most of the US population has paved roads everywhere they want to go. Vehicles that get driven offroad invariably get a lot of scratches, mud, etc, and the vast majority of trucks I see around town are absolutely pristine in that regard. There are plenty of legit use cases for a high clearance 4x4, but I think the vast majority of people claiming that they need one are being disingenuous, and really just want to feel like their commuter car is cool.
theryan 3y ago
Diesel trucks tow heavy equipment (10k+ lbs) very fuel efficiently which is a common use-case in the states without needing to resort to a semi. Where I live a large number of people also own travel trailers and boats, which also lend themselves to diesel pickups. I own a smaller truck myself (Ford Maverick) and tow a ~3000lb trailer with it regularly in the summer. My fuel economy goes from 30 mpg -> 11 mpg while towing. If I had a diesel, it would have virtually zero impact on mpg.
dclowd9901 3y ago
My take: it’s actually really awful trying to tow a trailer through the mountains without a diesel pickup. Now, most people aren’t doing that every day, every year or ever, but a person thinks “what if I ever need to tow my airstream through the Rockies like they show on those commercials?” And they buy the vehicle with the most utility. Other places that have mountainous regions, like South America, do have a lot more diesel trucks and 4x4s, so geographic region does play a part.

qwerpy 3y ago

Curious why the American car hate. I drove a Honda for more than a decade and thought I'd be a Honda driver for life, until I got a Tesla. I love it. From now on I'll be getting Teslas or Rivians or whatever else premium EVs happen to be the best, regardless of whether they're American, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, German, etc.

bluedino 3y ago
American car means the 'big three' automakers. GMC/Chevrolet/Buick, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/RAM, or Ford/Lincoln
dclowd9901 3y ago
Big three makers have very poor average quality, often ending up at the bottom of reliability lists. Tesla, from my expertise as a car builder, is just very sloppy. Poor panel fitment, door alignment, chintzy cheap materials for the price, and ultimately the smoke and mirror show that is FSD. Even if you manage to find one without all these issues, you still have a power source that essentially expires after 10 years and costs as much as a car to replace.
- qwerpy 3y ago
  Yeah it's really just the "EV" part that I like about the Tesla. Not ever having to pay for gas at a gas station and the fast acceleration. If just Toyota or Honda would release a long range mid/large electric SUV or van, not make me deal with dealership salespeople to get one, and make them easy to get, I'd get one of those next.
  - dclowd9901 3y ago
    I’m right there with you. I have no idea why they’re dragging their feet on it.

yvdriess 3y ago

> You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all pieces of shit, but just that’s the only thing people in the US buy from US manufacturers because no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans. That's because of protectionist laws, aka the chicken tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax Asian/European manufacturers were squeezed out of the light truck market. US manufacturers then had this lucrative niche they marketed the hell out of.

dclowd9901 3y ago
I had no idea this was a thing. That explains it.