3 ms·
> When most native English speakers think about "bad grammar", what they actually are referring to are a combination of dialectical differences and archaic rule
by wolverine876 3y ago
> When most native English speakers think about "bad grammar", what they actually are referring to are a combination of dialectical differences and archaic rules that rarely were ever true grammatical rules—more of stylistic preferences that have to be taught precisely because they aren't a part of colloquial speech.
You've said this in a couple of comments, at least, but what is it based on? To my knowledge and in my experience, the 'rules' of grammar arose from the study of language as it is used.
Could you give some examples of artificial rules?
Edit: Also there are universal aspects to grammar, found in completely disconnected cultures, strongly implying an inherited foundation to them. Here's a non-exhaustive list based on Donald Brown's Human Universals, the seminal book on such things, language and otherwise. Unfortunately, not much detail here on grammar, but my point is more about the inherited, not learned or created, nature of much language. (The categorization is by me, not Brown.)
* Grammar
* Semantics
* Semantic category of affecting things and people
* Semantic category of dimension
* Semantic category of giving
* Semantic category of location
* Semantic category of motion
* Semantic category of other physical properties
* Semantic components
* Semantic components, generation
* Semantic components, sex
* Vowel contrasts
* Nouns
* Personal names
* Pronouns
* Pronouns, minimum two numbers
* Pronouns, minimum three persons
* Proper names
* Verbs
* Numerals (counting)
* Antonyms
* Metonym
* Morphemes
* Polysemy (one word has several meanings)
* Phonemes
* Phonemes defined by set of minimally constrasting features
* Phonemes, merging of
* Phonemes, range from 10 to 70 in number
* Phonemic change, inevitability of
* Phonemic change, rules of
* Phonemic system
* Vocalic/nonvocalic contrasts in phonemes
* Contrasting marked and nonmarked sememes meaningful elements in language)
* Markedness
* Onomatopoeia
* Synonyms
* Sememes, commonly used ones are short, infrequently used ones Are longer
* Possessive, intimate
* Possessive, loose
* Translatable
* Stop/nonstop contrasts (in speech sounds)
* Words
* Age terms
* Black (color term)
* Face (word for)
* Father and mother, separate kin terms for
* Hand (word for)
* One (numeral)
* Two (numeral)
* Units of time
* White (color term)
* Techniques
* Abstraction in speech & thought
* Baby talk
* Figurative speech
* Linguistic redundancy
* Marking at phonemic, syntactic, and lexical levels
* Metaphor
* Synesthetic metaphors
* Not a simple reflection of reality
* Symbolism
* Symbolic speech
EDIT2: For those wondering, a 'marked' word is the non-default one in a binary pair of words. For example, for author & authoress, 'author' could mean any gender and is therefore 'unmarked'; 'authoress' specifies only women is therefore 'marked'. Or in a more interesting example, "In the case of 'wide' and 'narrow', 'wide' is the unmarked word: asking 'How wide is the road?' does not suggest that the road is wide, but asking 'How narrow is the road?' does suggest that the road is narrow."
My impression (I'm not an expert at all) is that 'marked' words and unmarked words also are associated with specific kinds of sounds or structures.
- lolinder 3y agoI gave some examples in my reply to your other comment, but here are some more, with sources: Split infinitives: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html Ending a sentence in a preposition: http://web.archive.org/web/20160222013258/http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/grammar-myths-prepositions/ http://web.archive.org/web/20160222013258/http://blog.oxford... Less vs fewer: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h... Singular they: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4166805?mag=grammar-rule-is-probably-fake https://www.jstor.org/stable/4166805?mag=grammar-rule-is-pro... Can you give me four equivalent examples of rules that have to be taught in school but arose naturally?
- wolverine876 3y agoThanks. While I've heard people say those things I don't recall being taught them or having read them anywhere authoritative, though I think Strunk & White recommended something in particular for less/fewer. > Split infinitives: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html From the citation: There is no clear support for the people who insist that a ‘split infinitive’ is a grammatical error. Even quite conservative grammar and usage books agree that it is not ... > Less vs fewer: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h... The cite recommends a usage manual, Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage, and says that book rejects the common advice/rules on about less & fewer. --------- Those two cites, at least, seem to be examples of the opposite of your claim; they say these aren't rules but misunderstandings (or possibly the second cite says that one is obsolete) and that authorities reject them. Even if they are rules, that doesn't make them arbitrary. For example, some could be obsolete, useful in a time and place. Some may be useful for mass publication, when a wide range of readers means you need to deal with edge cases that ordinary communication can ignore (sort of like the difference between code you write for yourself and code you write for millions of users). > Can you give me four equivalent examples of rules that have to be taught in school but arose naturally? I appreciate that you appear to have done some research. Thank you. And maybe I should return the favor. But are you really contending that there aren't many rules of grammar that arise naturally? I should also avoid any absolute arguments: Of course some 'rules' are arbitrary. Some are obsolete, as described above. Language changes. But that doesn't condemn all or most of grammar. I see on HN and other places a template - the sort of thing I was talking about in the post with Heraclitus - of rejecting rules, intellectual things, etc. as arbitrary, opinion, etc. Like the rules, their rejection can be just as reflexive as their acceptance, and just as arbitrary and meaningless without evidence.