6 ms·

An Open Letter to the FreeBSD Foundation, Core Team, Committers, and Community

26 points by nortonham 3y ago

nortonham 3y ago
*Title was edited to meet limit
neilv 3y ago
> the FreeBSD Discord Server, a community of over 3,000 members strong. Was the adoption of Discord by the FreeBSD community controversial?
- gerikson 3y ago
  I read that as a subset of the wider community. It does not seem to be officially endorsed.
  - grahamjperrin 3y ago
    https://www.freebsd.org/community/ https://www.freebsd.org/community/ Alongside Discord, we have the /r/freebsd subreddit; a Matrix instance (not yet listed); The FreeBSD Foundation on Mastodon (not yet listed); and so on. The last update to the Community page was by me. In an ideal world: I'd now add what's missing. In reality: I chose to resign (my doc commit bit was taken in for safekeeping). Side note: when I last checked, servers for The FreeBSD Forums were not (officially) hosted by The FreeBSD Project. HTH
    - gerikson 3y ago
      Thanks a lot for expanding on this!
- marwis 3y ago
  I find a lot of people older than, say, ~35 abhor Discord. Just like a decade+ ago they thought web forums were vastly inferior to mailing lists. And they were right on both counts =)
  - jedberg 3y ago
    I abhor Discord but it has nothing to do with my age. It's their terrible security policies. I wanted to join a Discord that required phone number verification. I gave them the number I've had for the last 24 years, and they said it was invalid because it is hosted on Google Voice. I asked for alternative authentication and they said, and I quote, "Do you have a friend who doesn't use Discord? Can you just use their phone to verify yourself?". Since then I've been very anti-Discord (but will still occasionally pop on because there are some interesting communities there).
    - marwis 3y ago
      That too is a problem but I hate it more for being a proprietary information black hole.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      That's why I love irc. I don't have to "verify" myself to any commercial org. I just make up a nick and go.
  - grahamjperrin 3y ago
    I'm a reluctant user of Discord for FreeBSD. I'm there only because it's a good community. A good web forum is vastly superior to mailing lists. Matrix, with suitable clients, is vastly superior to IRC. I'm above the age of thirty-five by twenty-three years and three quarters. I'm right on all counts ;-)
    - marwis 3y ago
      > A good web forum is vastly superior to mailing lists. This is easily refutable - one can make a web frontend to mailing list that imitates the look of any forum. Getting forum into email client (or other frontend) not so much ;-P And of course NNTP is superior to both.
      - grahamjperrin 3y ago
        I can refute the mailing list argument, but here's not the place for yet another argument about the pros and cons. NNTP is not looking good for the Project. Please see, for example: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/192271/253798105-45ab3ed1-862e-4794-879e-41edca9744ad.png https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/192271/253798105-4... At the time, mid-July: "twelve on-topic threads this year – overall, probably not bad enough to justify delisting." NNTP looks far worse for other groups that are promoted.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  Adoption was non-controversial. It took me by surprise, but there was no controversy.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  It is to me yes because it's so commercial and privacy invading. But I just use the irc channels. Or matrix which is just as good as discord and respects my privacy.
shrubble 3y ago
The guy is making good suggestions...you need a community around an OS and he is focusing on that.
Throw83858 3y ago
> You Don’t Know How To Code In C > I started using two decades ago...use old school style C on microcontrollers regularly! Those two statements do not necessary contradict each other. C evolves and skills required on large programs are vastly different from microcontrollers. Look from other side of an open-source developer and maintainer. You have to spend several hours polishing unfinished Pull Request, only to give other person credit as a "commiter". If you throw away the PR, and instead spend 10 minutes writing it yourself, you "stole" the credit. Many people do Pull Requests, only to pad their CV! Drama like this is why I do not accept any patches.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  Let's note that CV padding is not relevant to the open letter. Thanks
  - Throw83858 3y ago
    That is most likely correct. I am guessing here. But it is most common motivation maintainers face. Another one is some sort of "PR notch hunting". And just because I am in maintainer role, does not mean I signed up for mentorship role. If you want proper support, I do consultations at $200/hour. Many maintainers are unpaid volunteers!
    - bakul 3y ago
      If new people are properly (but gently) mentored, they are more likely to do things the “right way” that’ll reduce maintainers’ work from any future contributions from them.
      - Throw83858 3y ago
        Not in my experience. It just increases load on maintainers, as beginner moves up on complexity ladder and requires more support. Plus it is a liability. They may get offended by something, and start a smear campaign. RTFM is perfect solid answer. It is great repelent on drama. If you take it politely, I will even point you to specific chapters.
marwis 3y ago
Probably useful to link https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189/files https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189/files for some context. Looks like author overdramatizes the situation a bit.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- barkingcat 3y ago
  Reads like an inability to follow directions and to communicate clearly.
  - rodlette 3y ago
    Agreed. I don't think the PR reviewer is calling the author a liar. The reviewer said FreeBSD is not willing to lie to its users about version, and instead provided useful info, pointing out the relevant example. Still, there's a lesson for reviewers that tone is important, especially over text and where a power differential exists. Also, the author notes: > The very first comment in the thread from a reviewer was simply only one word: “Why?” - That’s it, just one word. Why did I do this? Why work with such old hardware? Why is the sky blue? How the hell am I to know the context of what they’re referring to when asking a one-worded question? Its clear from https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189#discussion_r1306684978 https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189#discussion... that the author is asking why is this line needed, something a PR author should always be able to justify.
    - winternewt 3y ago
      And the PR author clearly doesn't even know why (he even begins the answer with "¯_(ツ)_/¯"). His only explanation is that it's there because it was in the code that he copied. So essentially he has submitted code that he doesn't understand and is angered when people ask him to explain it. It's their job to ensure that the code is there for a good reason. That is how the quality is upheld.
- 3y ago
INTPenis 3y ago
Is FreeBSD attractive enough to garner a community today? I used to be a FreeBSD user back in the days of walnut creek CD-ROM. But today I see very little reason to torture myself with FreeBSD. So why should anyone else? I get the sentiment that it's good to have diversity and competition, but if you want to get a job done then Linux is the best out right now.
- jedberg 3y ago
  FreeBSD still has the superior networking stack. If throughput and latency are your primary bottlenecks, then you want FreeBSD. Netflix used FreeBSD for their entire CDN.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    >Netflix used FreeBSD for their entire CDN. No need for the past tense; they still do.
    - grahamjperrin 3y ago
      Maybe not exactly the entire CDN. I mean: I think of the CDN having its control system in addition to controlled appliances, and so on. "Netflix delivers streaming content using a combination of intelligent clients, a central control system, and a network of Open Connect appliances. …" Netflix portrays FreeBSD in the Open Connect software context: https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/appliances/#software https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/appliances/#software
  - INTPenis 3y ago
    Ok so Netflix use FreeBSD, but literally everyone else use Linux. Is their throughput worse?
    - kettunen 3y ago
      Yes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qZYL5RlgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qZYL5RlgY
soupbowl 3y ago
Seems like some minor drama that doesn't matter and a few decent ideas. Surprised this made it onto HN.
barkingcat 3y ago
This person even though having great ideas, needs an editor and a communicator liaison to help get the ideas across. First suggestion is to separate out the personal greavances from the ideas for the project and present them as distinct issues. There is a section of this posting that reads like what I would send to an HR department when trying to get accommodation.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  In my own disgruntled situation, it took two months for me to craft something that touched, delicately, upon grievances. Finding the words was, sometimes, exhausting. I can't speak for Vince, but he's clearly unhappy, so I give him plenty of slack with freedom of expression.
  - nortonham 3y ago
    >In my own disgruntled situation, related to freebsd? what was your situation?
    - grahamjperrin 3y ago
      In as few words as possible: I resigned. Pleasantly under the radar: https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-07-2023-09/ https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-07-2023-09/ via https://redd.it/17lr4vp https://redd.it/17lr4vp
      - nortonham 3y ago
        Sorry, it's not obvious from the links, but, where do I see that you resigned? Whatever it was, I hope it wasn't the result of anything serious. I think I see you over the freebsd subreddit; you're comments are almost always informative and helpful.
      - nortonham 3y ago
        nvm, I see your name in there
wkat4242 3y ago
I don't think FreeBSD has a problem at all. I love it and use it as my main daily driver desktop. But, I don't want it to be too mainstream. I picked it precisely because I think Linux is becoming too mainstream with too much involvement from big tech. I think things are just fine as they are. The last thing I'd want to see is "the year of FreeBSD on the desktop" lol. Sometimes things are great especially because they're not for everyone.
- nortonham 3y ago
  > I don't think FreeBSD has a problem at all. I love it and use it as my main daily driver desktop. I use it, admittedly not as a daily driver, but I have it installed on thinkpad and am familiar with 3 of the BSD's. I think FreeBSD does have some issues, some laid out in this letter. The rest seems like some drama.
baz00 3y ago
One thing I realise when I read things like this is I'm too old to give a shit about personal dramas. Which is what this is.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  > personal dramas. Which is what this is. Not one person alone. >> … please note that I’ve discussed this at length with countless members of the community over the past couple of years, and several have shared strikingly similar experiences in confidence. …
  - baz00 3y ago
    That is hearsay until other people speak up.
    - grahamjperrin 3y ago
      I resigned.
      - baz00 3y ago
        Any further discussion around this decision? Trying to peek inside an ecosystem here.
ThinkBeat 3y ago
I dont think that the "merge masters" have the obligation to start debugging and rewriting code so that it reaches a state where it can be submitted. It is great if they do so, but one should not expect them to do so. I dont think that everything belongs in the port tree. Being told that it does not, should not automatically be taken a personal insult. >Many reviewers want things to be 100% absolutely perfect when a submission hits >their desk, so all they have to do is click “merge” and be done with it. If >things are not perfect, then the submission will either sit idle forever, or >worse, passive aggressive commentary starts.
KirillPanov 3y ago
JavaScript isn't enabled in your browser, so this file can't be opened. Enable and reload.

26 points by nortonham 3y ago

*Title was edited to meet limit

> the FreeBSD Discord Server, a community of over 3,000 members strong. Was the adoption of Discord by the FreeBSD community controversial?

gerikson 3y ago
I read that as a subset of the wider community. It does not seem to be officially endorsed.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  https://www.freebsd.org/community/ https://www.freebsd.org/community/ Alongside Discord, we have the /r/freebsd subreddit; a Matrix instance (not yet listed); The FreeBSD Foundation on Mastodon (not yet listed); and so on. The last update to the Community page was by me. In an ideal world: I'd now add what's missing. In reality: I chose to resign (my doc commit bit was taken in for safekeeping). Side note: when I last checked, servers for The FreeBSD Forums were not (officially) hosted by The FreeBSD Project. HTH
  - gerikson 3y ago
    Thanks a lot for expanding on this!
marwis 3y ago
I find a lot of people older than, say, ~35 abhor Discord. Just like a decade+ ago they thought web forums were vastly inferior to mailing lists. And they were right on both counts =)
- jedberg 3y ago
  I abhor Discord but it has nothing to do with my age. It's their terrible security policies. I wanted to join a Discord that required phone number verification. I gave them the number I've had for the last 24 years, and they said it was invalid because it is hosted on Google Voice. I asked for alternative authentication and they said, and I quote, "Do you have a friend who doesn't use Discord? Can you just use their phone to verify yourself?". Since then I've been very anti-Discord (but will still occasionally pop on because there are some interesting communities there).
  - marwis 3y ago
    That too is a problem but I hate it more for being a proprietary information black hole.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    That's why I love irc. I don't have to "verify" myself to any commercial org. I just make up a nick and go.
- grahamjperrin 3y ago
  I'm a reluctant user of Discord for FreeBSD. I'm there only because it's a good community. A good web forum is vastly superior to mailing lists. Matrix, with suitable clients, is vastly superior to IRC. I'm above the age of thirty-five by twenty-three years and three quarters. I'm right on all counts ;-)
  - marwis 3y ago
    > A good web forum is vastly superior to mailing lists. This is easily refutable - one can make a web frontend to mailing list that imitates the look of any forum. Getting forum into email client (or other frontend) not so much ;-P And of course NNTP is superior to both.
    - grahamjperrin 3y ago
      I can refute the mailing list argument, but here's not the place for yet another argument about the pros and cons. NNTP is not looking good for the Project. Please see, for example: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/192271/253798105-45ab3ed1-862e-4794-879e-41edca9744ad.png https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/192271/253798105-4... At the time, mid-July: "twelve on-topic threads this year – overall, probably not bad enough to justify delisting." NNTP looks far worse for other groups that are promoted.
grahamjperrin 3y ago
Adoption was non-controversial. It took me by surprise, but there was no controversy.
wkat4242 3y ago
It is to me yes because it's so commercial and privacy invading. But I just use the irc channels. Or matrix which is just as good as discord and respects my privacy.

shrubble 3y ago

The guy is making good suggestions...you need a community around an OS and he is focusing on that.

Throw83858 3y ago

> You Don’t Know How To Code In C > I started using two decades ago...use old school style C on microcontrollers regularly! Those two statements do not necessary contradict each other. C evolves and skills required on large programs are vastly different from microcontrollers. Look from other side of an open-source developer and maintainer. You have to spend several hours polishing unfinished Pull Request, only to give other person credit as a "commiter". If you throw away the PR, and instead spend 10 minutes writing it yourself, you "stole" the credit. Many people do Pull Requests, only to pad their CV! Drama like this is why I do not accept any patches.

grahamjperrin 3y ago
Let's note that CV padding is not relevant to the open letter. Thanks
- Throw83858 3y ago
  That is most likely correct. I am guessing here. But it is most common motivation maintainers face. Another one is some sort of "PR notch hunting". And just because I am in maintainer role, does not mean I signed up for mentorship role. If you want proper support, I do consultations at $200/hour. Many maintainers are unpaid volunteers!
  - bakul 3y ago
    If new people are properly (but gently) mentored, they are more likely to do things the “right way” that’ll reduce maintainers’ work from any future contributions from them.
    - Throw83858 3y ago
      Not in my experience. It just increases load on maintainers, as beginner moves up on complexity ladder and requires more support. Plus it is a liability. They may get offended by something, and start a smear campaign. RTFM is perfect solid answer. It is great repelent on drama. If you take it politely, I will even point you to specific chapters.

marwis 3y ago

Probably useful to link https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189/files https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189/files for some context. Looks like author overdramatizes the situation a bit.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
barkingcat 3y ago
Reads like an inability to follow directions and to communicate clearly.
- rodlette 3y ago
  Agreed. I don't think the PR reviewer is calling the author a liar. The reviewer said FreeBSD is not willing to lie to its users about version, and instead provided useful info, pointing out the relevant example. Still, there's a lesson for reviewers that tone is important, especially over text and where a power differential exists. Also, the author notes: > The very first comment in the thread from a reviewer was simply only one word: “Why?” - That’s it, just one word. Why did I do this? Why work with such old hardware? Why is the sky blue? How the hell am I to know the context of what they’re referring to when asking a one-worded question? Its clear from https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189#discussion_r1306684978 https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/pull/189#discussion... that the author is asking why is this line needed, something a PR author should always be able to justify.
  - winternewt 3y ago
    And the PR author clearly doesn't even know why (he even begins the answer with "¯_(ツ)_/¯"). His only explanation is that it's there because it was in the code that he copied. So essentially he has submitted code that he doesn't understand and is angered when people ask him to explain it. It's their job to ensure that the code is there for a good reason. That is how the quality is upheld.
3y ago

INTPenis 3y ago

Is FreeBSD attractive enough to garner a community today? I used to be a FreeBSD user back in the days of walnut creek CD-ROM. But today I see very little reason to torture myself with FreeBSD. So why should anyone else? I get the sentiment that it's good to have diversity and competition, but if you want to get a job done then Linux is the best out right now.

jedberg 3y ago
FreeBSD still has the superior networking stack. If throughput and latency are your primary bottlenecks, then you want FreeBSD. Netflix used FreeBSD for their entire CDN.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  >Netflix used FreeBSD for their entire CDN. No need for the past tense; they still do.
  - grahamjperrin 3y ago
    Maybe not exactly the entire CDN. I mean: I think of the CDN having its control system in addition to controlled appliances, and so on. "Netflix delivers streaming content using a combination of intelligent clients, a central control system, and a network of Open Connect appliances. …" Netflix portrays FreeBSD in the Open Connect software context: https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/appliances/#software https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/appliances/#software
- INTPenis 3y ago
  Ok so Netflix use FreeBSD, but literally everyone else use Linux. Is their throughput worse?
  - kettunen 3y ago
    Yes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qZYL5RlgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qZYL5RlgY

soupbowl 3y ago

Seems like some minor drama that doesn't matter and a few decent ideas. Surprised this made it onto HN.

barkingcat 3y ago

This person even though having great ideas, needs an editor and a communicator liaison to help get the ideas across. First suggestion is to separate out the personal greavances from the ideas for the project and present them as distinct issues. There is a section of this posting that reads like what I would send to an HR department when trying to get accommodation.

grahamjperrin 3y ago
In my own disgruntled situation, it took two months for me to craft something that touched, delicately, upon grievances. Finding the words was, sometimes, exhausting. I can't speak for Vince, but he's clearly unhappy, so I give him plenty of slack with freedom of expression.
- nortonham 3y ago
  >In my own disgruntled situation, related to freebsd? what was your situation?
  - grahamjperrin 3y ago
    In as few words as possible: I resigned. Pleasantly under the radar: https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-07-2023-09/ https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-07-2023-09/ via https://redd.it/17lr4vp https://redd.it/17lr4vp
    - nortonham 3y ago
      Sorry, it's not obvious from the links, but, where do I see that you resigned? Whatever it was, I hope it wasn't the result of anything serious. I think I see you over the freebsd subreddit; you're comments are almost always informative and helpful.
    - nortonham 3y ago
      nvm, I see your name in there

wkat4242 3y ago

I don't think FreeBSD has a problem at all. I love it and use it as my main daily driver desktop. But, I don't want it to be too mainstream. I picked it precisely because I think Linux is becoming too mainstream with too much involvement from big tech. I think things are just fine as they are. The last thing I'd want to see is "the year of FreeBSD on the desktop" lol. Sometimes things are great especially because they're not for everyone.

nortonham 3y ago
> I don't think FreeBSD has a problem at all. I love it and use it as my main daily driver desktop. I use it, admittedly not as a daily driver, but I have it installed on thinkpad and am familiar with 3 of the BSD's. I think FreeBSD does have some issues, some laid out in this letter. The rest seems like some drama.

baz00 3y ago

One thing I realise when I read things like this is I'm too old to give a shit about personal dramas. Which is what this is.

grahamjperrin 3y ago
> personal dramas. Which is what this is. Not one person alone. >> … please note that I’ve discussed this at length with countless members of the community over the past couple of years, and several have shared strikingly similar experiences in confidence. …
- baz00 3y ago
  That is hearsay until other people speak up.
  - grahamjperrin 3y ago
    I resigned.
    - baz00 3y ago
      Any further discussion around this decision? Trying to peek inside an ecosystem here.

ThinkBeat 3y ago

I dont think that the "merge masters" have the obligation to start debugging and rewriting code so that it reaches a state where it can be submitted. It is great if they do so, but one should not expect them to do so. I dont think that everything belongs in the port tree. Being told that it does not, should not automatically be taken a personal insult. >Many reviewers want things to be 100% absolutely perfect when a submission hits >their desk, so all they have to do is click “merge” and be done with it. If >things are not perfect, then the submission will either sit idle forever, or >worse, passive aggressive commentary starts.

KirillPanov 3y ago

JavaScript isn't enabled in your browser, so this file can't be opened. Enable and reload.