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The 5 hours doesn’t surprise me. I was on the jury of a federal fraud trial with 2 defendants with 15 charges, ~30 million in losses. We were thorough and wen

The 5 hours doesn’t surprise me. I was on the jury of a federal fraud trial with 2 defendants with 15 charges, ~30 million in losses. We were thorough and went through each count separately, including reviewing some of the evidence, and were done in maybe 8 hours spread across 2 days. We ended up with a mixed verdict: one count not guilty for both, another not guilty for one. I fully believe they were aware and committed fraud for the not guilty counts, but the prosecutor wasn’t able to cross the “reasonable doubt” threshold in our minds for those specific instances. Only thing we weren’t super careful about was the first requirement for Mail/Wire fraud, which is “Mail and wires” were used. It was amusing that the prosecutors brought in a bank IT guy to explain that “the internet uses wires”, but not really something we questioned.

SilasX 3y ago
“So, contrary to popular belief, the internet is not some big truck that you can just dump something on a la Ted Stevens; it’s more of a … series of tubes?” ‘That is correct.’
JohnFen 3y ago
> to explain that “the internet uses wires” I wonder if they did that to avoid having to explain to the jury that wire fraud does not actually require the use of wires...
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  What does it require, if not wires? And are modern fiber optic cables wires in any sense of the word? Does the relevant statute in USC18 actually define "wire" for the purpose of the crime? Part of me thinks that wireless communications must be included, but one might make the case that even then, information/communication is transmitted over wire at some point.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Wire, radio, and television. The definition is: "having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 UPDATE: Various court decisions have expanded the interpretation so that "wire fraud" also involves the use of the internet, phone calls, emails, social media messages, faxes, telegrams, fiber optic, cable or SMS messaging and data systems. I am not a lawyer, though. I could be mistaken on this.

SilasX 3y ago

“So, contrary to popular belief, the internet is not some big truck that you can just dump something on a la Ted Stevens; it’s more of a … series of tubes?” ‘That is correct.’

JohnFen 3y ago

> to explain that “the internet uses wires” I wonder if they did that to avoid having to explain to the jury that wire fraud does not actually require the use of wires...

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
What does it require, if not wires? And are modern fiber optic cables wires in any sense of the word? Does the relevant statute in USC18 actually define "wire" for the purpose of the crime? Part of me thinks that wireless communications must be included, but one might make the case that even then, information/communication is transmitted over wire at some point.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Wire, radio, and television. The definition is: "having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 UPDATE: Various court decisions have expanded the interpretation so that "wire fraud" also involves the use of the internet, phone calls, emails, social media messages, faxes, telegrams, fiber optic, cable or SMS messaging and data systems. I am not a lawyer, though. I could be mistaken on this.