6 ms·

Anyone know where to get good details? Specifically: do they know where the money went? If not, how did they prove intent (I assume they proved intent)? Edit:

by bo1024 3y ago

Anyone know where to get good details? Specifically: do they know where the money went? If not, how did they prove intent (I assume they proved intent)? Edit: another thing I'm wondering is about jurisdiction, since most of this occurred offshore and didn't involve US customers.

wmf 3y ago
The FTX bankruptcy case is tracking down where all the money went. SBF's criminal trial was more concerned with proving a small number of crimes with overwhelming evidence. There have been tons of articles, podcasts, videos, and tweets about the trial. Evidence was mostly chat logs of SBF ordering crimes and testimony from Caroline, Gary, and Nishad that he ordered them to do crimes.
ncallaway 3y ago
If you want a good summary of each day of trial: https://www.theverge.com/authors/elizabeth-lopatto https://www.theverge.com/authors/elizabeth-lopatto and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHD5JP6xZcE&list=PLySrw1Nvf-srtnvhoEZ6wJzTI1nJ82rEu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHD5JP6xZcE&list=PLySrw1Nvf-... If you want a really detailed overview of his testimony and cross-examination: https://www.youtube.com/@molly0xfff/streams https://www.youtube.com/@molly0xfff/streams > do they know where the money went Not all of it (at least, not for the trial). They showed significant components of it as part of the trial, but they don't need to show a super detailed breakdown of every single dollar as part of the trial, so I don't think we got that. > If not, how did they prove intent (I assume they proved intent)? Circumstantial evidence and witness testimony mostly. Including a cross-examination of Sam that thoroughly undermined his credibility.
- bo1024 3y ago
  Thank you!
- bambax 3y ago
  Carly Reilly of Overpriced JPEGs also did a fantastic job of debriefing each day of the trial: https://www.youtube.com/@overpricedjpegs https://www.youtube.com/@overpricedjpegs Extremely informative and fun to watch (if you can get past the "sponsor breaks" for NFT platforms and the like).
- thr0waw4yz 3y ago
  Did he have the right to say nothing at all in the cross-examination?
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    No. As a defendant you have a right to not testify at all. You can decide not to take the stand. No one can request you take the stand, and the prosecution absolutely cannot make arguments about your decision not to take the stand in front of the jury. But if you do take the stand, then the prosecution gets to ask you questions that you must answer (unless there’s a sustained objection about the specific question). This is why so often defendants do not testify. Testifying on direct (when the defendant’s lawyer is the one asking questions) will almost always help the defendant. But the risks created by exposing oneself to cross examination are massive, so most choose not to take the stand.
styles 3y ago
The intent is that it was customer money. There is a fiduciary duty. They have separate custodial accounts for customer funds. They did not separate funds. It was clear as day.
StressedDev 3y ago
RE: Where the money went - The customer's money was used for the following purposes: 1. To pay for Alameda's (Sam Bankman Fried's hedge fund) and FTX's loses 2. Invest in venture capital and make acquisitions 3. Political donations 4. Charitable donations 5. Luxury real-estate, boats, etc. 6. "loans" (i.e. transfer of stolen funds) to FTX's top executives RE: Intent - Intent was easy to prove. All of Sam Bankman-Fried's fellow executives testified against him. In addition, Sam Bankman-Fried gave several interviews after FTX's collapse where he basically admitted he lied, fucked up, etc. Also, there was a lot of documents proving Sam Bankman-Fried lied. A good example is him saying FTX was fine on Twitter (X) and then it collapsed a few days later. Here are some good FTX resources: https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files - Molley White did a good job covering the trial. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-announces-charges-against-ftx-founder-samuel-bankman-fried https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-... - This site contains the government's indictment against Sam Bankman-Fried. https://restructuring.ra.kroll.com/FTX/Home-Index https://restructuring.ra.kroll.com/FTX/Home-Index - A lot of the FTX bankruptcy documents are on this website.
- bo1024 3y ago
  Thanks, this is really helpful!
bmitc 3y ago
Molly White had excellent writeups for the entire trial. She even did excellent multi-hour livestreams going over her notes for the portion of the trial where she was physically present at the courtroom. https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files
- kylebenzle 3y ago
  Molly has done a poor job covering the cryptocurrency industry in general.
  - simonw 3y ago
    You misspelt "excellent" there. (Seriously, if you're going to claim that Molly White of all people did a bad job covering cryptocurrency you're going to need to bring receipts.)
    - kylebenzle 3y ago
      Of course. First, she calls the industry, "a grift". I've been in deeply into crypto since 2012 and dismissing peer-to-peer digital cash nothing but a "scam" in 2023 ignores a decade of progress and hard work, not to mention an actual working product used by thousands of people a year. Everyone actually using Bitcoin Cash, Ethereum and Monero know that 99.999% of what is out there is a scam for morons. Main exhibit would be her editorializing (not reporting) of the industry with her site, https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://web3isgoinggreat.com/. Here she posts only negative articles or opinions cherry picked for highlight issues with crypto. Every "hack", every rug-pull, every scam token. In my opinion its a HUGE waste of time and not useful or interesting. The website she should have built for Web3isGoingGreat.com would be VERY simple, just a like to the home pages for Bitcoin White Paper, then the Monero and Bitcoin Cash home pages. Thats all anyone needs to know about crypto, the rest is a scam.
      - jefftk 3y ago
        > the rest is a scam Etherium is a scam?
choppaface 3y ago
And where is Sam Trabucco ???
donkeyd 3y ago
> another thing I'm wondering is about jurisdiction, since most of this occurred offshore and didn't involve US customers This is complicated, but often it's possible to try someone in a single country, especially if it's their home country. In CSAM cases this often happens, the facts might happen in Asia, but someone is tried in their home country. I know the law in my country has provisions specifically for this and murder cases among others.

by bo1024 3y ago

wmf 3y ago

The FTX bankruptcy case is tracking down where all the money went. SBF's criminal trial was more concerned with proving a small number of crimes with overwhelming evidence. There have been tons of articles, podcasts, videos, and tweets about the trial. Evidence was mostly chat logs of SBF ordering crimes and testimony from Caroline, Gary, and Nishad that he ordered them to do crimes.

ncallaway 3y ago

If you want a good summary of each day of trial: https://www.theverge.com/authors/elizabeth-lopatto https://www.theverge.com/authors/elizabeth-lopatto and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHD5JP6xZcE&list=PLySrw1Nvf-srtnvhoEZ6wJzTI1nJ82rEu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHD5JP6xZcE&list=PLySrw1Nvf-... If you want a really detailed overview of his testimony and cross-examination: https://www.youtube.com/@molly0xfff/streams https://www.youtube.com/@molly0xfff/streams > do they know where the money went Not all of it (at least, not for the trial). They showed significant components of it as part of the trial, but they don't need to show a super detailed breakdown of every single dollar as part of the trial, so I don't think we got that. > If not, how did they prove intent (I assume they proved intent)? Circumstantial evidence and witness testimony mostly. Including a cross-examination of Sam that thoroughly undermined his credibility.

bo1024 3y ago
Thank you!
bambax 3y ago
Carly Reilly of Overpriced JPEGs also did a fantastic job of debriefing each day of the trial: https://www.youtube.com/@overpricedjpegs https://www.youtube.com/@overpricedjpegs Extremely informative and fun to watch (if you can get past the "sponsor breaks" for NFT platforms and the like).
thr0waw4yz 3y ago
Did he have the right to say nothing at all in the cross-examination?
- ncallaway 3y ago
  No. As a defendant you have a right to not testify at all. You can decide not to take the stand. No one can request you take the stand, and the prosecution absolutely cannot make arguments about your decision not to take the stand in front of the jury. But if you do take the stand, then the prosecution gets to ask you questions that you must answer (unless there’s a sustained objection about the specific question). This is why so often defendants do not testify. Testifying on direct (when the defendant’s lawyer is the one asking questions) will almost always help the defendant. But the risks created by exposing oneself to cross examination are massive, so most choose not to take the stand.

styles 3y ago

The intent is that it was customer money. There is a fiduciary duty. They have separate custodial accounts for customer funds. They did not separate funds. It was clear as day.

StressedDev 3y ago

RE: Where the money went - The customer's money was used for the following purposes: 1. To pay for Alameda's (Sam Bankman Fried's hedge fund) and FTX's loses 2. Invest in venture capital and make acquisitions 3. Political donations 4. Charitable donations 5. Luxury real-estate, boats, etc. 6. "loans" (i.e. transfer of stolen funds) to FTX's top executives RE: Intent - Intent was easy to prove. All of Sam Bankman-Fried's fellow executives testified against him. In addition, Sam Bankman-Fried gave several interviews after FTX's collapse where he basically admitted he lied, fucked up, etc. Also, there was a lot of documents proving Sam Bankman-Fried lied. A good example is him saying FTX was fine on Twitter (X) and then it collapsed a few days later. Here are some good FTX resources: https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files - Molley White did a good job covering the trial. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-announces-charges-against-ftx-founder-samuel-bankman-fried https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-attorney-... - This site contains the government's indictment against Sam Bankman-Fried. https://restructuring.ra.kroll.com/FTX/Home-Index https://restructuring.ra.kroll.com/FTX/Home-Index - A lot of the FTX bankruptcy documents are on this website.

bo1024 3y ago
Thanks, this is really helpful!

bmitc 3y ago

Molly White had excellent writeups for the entire trial. She even did excellent multi-hour livestreams going over her notes for the portion of the trial where she was physically present at the courtroom. https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/s/the-ftx-files

kylebenzle 3y ago
Molly has done a poor job covering the cryptocurrency industry in general.
- simonw 3y ago
  You misspelt "excellent" there. (Seriously, if you're going to claim that Molly White of all people did a bad job covering cryptocurrency you're going to need to bring receipts.)
  - kylebenzle 3y ago
    Of course. First, she calls the industry, "a grift". I've been in deeply into crypto since 2012 and dismissing peer-to-peer digital cash nothing but a "scam" in 2023 ignores a decade of progress and hard work, not to mention an actual working product used by thousands of people a year. Everyone actually using Bitcoin Cash, Ethereum and Monero know that 99.999% of what is out there is a scam for morons. Main exhibit would be her editorializing (not reporting) of the industry with her site, https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://web3isgoinggreat.com/. Here she posts only negative articles or opinions cherry picked for highlight issues with crypto. Every "hack", every rug-pull, every scam token. In my opinion its a HUGE waste of time and not useful or interesting. The website she should have built for Web3isGoingGreat.com would be VERY simple, just a like to the home pages for Bitcoin White Paper, then the Monero and Bitcoin Cash home pages. Thats all anyone needs to know about crypto, the rest is a scam.
    - jefftk 3y ago
      > the rest is a scam Etherium is a scam?

choppaface 3y ago

And where is Sam Trabucco ???

donkeyd 3y ago

> another thing I'm wondering is about jurisdiction, since most of this occurred offshore and didn't involve US customers This is complicated, but often it's possible to try someone in a single country, especially if it's their home country. In CSAM cases this often happens, the facts might happen in Asia, but someone is tried in their home country. I know the law in my country has provisions specifically for this and murder cases among others.