4 ms·

I think the issue divides when you cross the line from "personal belief" to "this personal belief should be a law." Imagine forced abortions - wouldn't that be

I think the issue divides when you cross the line from "personal belief" to "this personal belief should be a law." Imagine forced abortions - wouldn't that be insane? Some see forcing a woman to have a baby to be equally insane.

vacuity 3y ago
This gets thorny when you delve into the metaethics. Basically, why is murder considered immoral and should be punished (or at least addressed)? Well, is abortion murder? If it is, then opposing abortions is the right thing to do. Personally, I'm leaning towards supporting , but I'm struggling to develop a reasonable moral framework. I do think a society should be founded on a minimal, solid foundation so as to curb the moral relativism. I don't want to be tasked with answering "what kinds of abortion are allowed in your ideal society" anytime soon. I can't speak for everyone. If you feel that abortion is a fundamental right, then go stand up for it. (Of course, you are doing that.) But who can say that their list of rights is right?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > Well, is abortion murder? If it is, then opposing abortions is the right thing to do. Personally, I'm leaning towards supporting , but I'm struggling to develop a reasonable moral framework. I wasn't always strongly pro-life. I used to vaguely hold the standard European position (allowed up to 12-15 weeks with exceptions). What "radicalized" me, was the most cliché thing imaginable: photographs of abortion victims, from a clinic in my metropolitan area. My memory of past events in my personal life is generally quite hazy. But the instant things "clicked" for me on this issue, is clearly fixed. The images in question can be found here (WARNING VERY GRAPHIC): https://www.liveaction.org/news/infant-bodies-infanticide-attempted-abortions/ https://www.liveaction.org/news/infant-bodies-infanticide-at...
  - vacuity 3y ago
    You weren't wrong with the "GRAPHIC" warning. Abortion clinics should find better ways of carrying out abortions, to ensure minimal pain and, if possible, the gruesomeness. I'm not persuaded towards pro-life by the images, though. If abortions are considered morally permissible and the techniques are reasonably considerate of the fetus, I would be failing my own moral responsibility by letting images deter me. I mostly borrow Don Marquis' notion that killing an adult human is often murder because the adult had a "valuable future" (not necessarily valued by the person themselves). A fetus also has such a future, as opposed to, say, a sperm cell. Roughly, I say this is because a fetus denotes an entity of a well-defined process of continued life (development, birth, further growth). In fact, I think all morals and whatnot are ultimately based on prohibiting the bad, no good, negative stuff that people do to each other. In other words, to ensure everyone has a reasonably "good life". Although a fetus therefore has moral consideration, though not necessarily a "person" in the moral sense, a full evaluation of abortion must also include an account of the woman's moral consideration. I'm still trying to determine where to draw the line.
Georgelemental 3y ago
An unborn child is an independent person, who (cases of rape excepted) came into existence due to a free choice of their mother. They deserve an opportunity to experience life according to their personal beliefs, just like everyone else. To kill them is to violate that right. > Imagine forced abortions Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine. Many US states allow surrogacy contracts with forced-abortion clauses.
- roflyear 3y ago
  A fetus is not a person, I think is the argument.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > A fetus is (not) a person This question is the crux of the debate, and has always been. But in my experience, many pro-choice advocates are reluctant to address it directly; they prefer to talk about "rights" and "personal beliefs." Probably because, when you consider it seriously, the answer is inescapable.
    - roflyear 3y ago
      It is the crux of the issue, alongside bodily autonomy of the woman, which is important. No serious, mature pro-life people pretend that abortion is a simple thing. People very much so understand the gravity of it.

vacuity 3y ago

This gets thorny when you delve into the metaethics. Basically, why is murder considered immoral and should be punished (or at least addressed)? Well, is abortion murder? If it is, then opposing abortions is the right thing to do. Personally, I'm leaning towards supporting , but I'm struggling to develop a reasonable moral framework. I do think a society should be founded on a minimal, solid foundation so as to curb the moral relativism. I don't want to be tasked with answering "what kinds of abortion are allowed in your ideal society" anytime soon. I can't speak for everyone. If you feel that abortion is a fundamental right, then go stand up for it. (Of course, you are doing that.) But who can say that their list of rights is right?

Georgelemental 3y ago
> Well, is abortion murder? If it is, then opposing abortions is the right thing to do. Personally, I'm leaning towards supporting , but I'm struggling to develop a reasonable moral framework. I wasn't always strongly pro-life. I used to vaguely hold the standard European position (allowed up to 12-15 weeks with exceptions). What "radicalized" me, was the most cliché thing imaginable: photographs of abortion victims, from a clinic in my metropolitan area. My memory of past events in my personal life is generally quite hazy. But the instant things "clicked" for me on this issue, is clearly fixed. The images in question can be found here (WARNING VERY GRAPHIC): https://www.liveaction.org/news/infant-bodies-infanticide-attempted-abortions/ https://www.liveaction.org/news/infant-bodies-infanticide-at...
- vacuity 3y ago
  You weren't wrong with the "GRAPHIC" warning. Abortion clinics should find better ways of carrying out abortions, to ensure minimal pain and, if possible, the gruesomeness. I'm not persuaded towards pro-life by the images, though. If abortions are considered morally permissible and the techniques are reasonably considerate of the fetus, I would be failing my own moral responsibility by letting images deter me. I mostly borrow Don Marquis' notion that killing an adult human is often murder because the adult had a "valuable future" (not necessarily valued by the person themselves). A fetus also has such a future, as opposed to, say, a sperm cell. Roughly, I say this is because a fetus denotes an entity of a well-defined process of continued life (development, birth, further growth). In fact, I think all morals and whatnot are ultimately based on prohibiting the bad, no good, negative stuff that people do to each other. In other words, to ensure everyone has a reasonably "good life". Although a fetus therefore has moral consideration, though not necessarily a "person" in the moral sense, a full evaluation of abortion must also include an account of the woman's moral consideration. I'm still trying to determine where to draw the line.

Georgelemental 3y ago

An unborn child is an independent person, who (cases of rape excepted) came into existence due to a free choice of their mother. They deserve an opportunity to experience life according to their personal beliefs, just like everyone else. To kill them is to violate that right. > Imagine forced abortions Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine. Many US states allow surrogacy contracts with forced-abortion clauses.

roflyear 3y ago
A fetus is not a person, I think is the argument.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > A fetus is (not) a person This question is the crux of the debate, and has always been. But in my experience, many pro-choice advocates are reluctant to address it directly; they prefer to talk about "rights" and "personal beliefs." Probably because, when you consider it seriously, the answer is inescapable.
  - roflyear 3y ago
    It is the crux of the issue, alongside bodily autonomy of the woman, which is important. No serious, mature pro-life people pretend that abortion is a simple thing. People very much so understand the gravity of it.