5 ms·

I live in Manhattan and I see rats pretty often on the streets and in the subway. But to be honest, they have never caused me any problems. They'd obviously be

I live in Manhattan and I see rats pretty often on the streets and in the subway. But to be honest, they have never caused me any problems. They'd obviously be a big problem if they got into people's homes or businesses frequently, but that actually seems very rare. It makes me wonder, other than people thinking they are gross, what is the primary problem caused by rats in NYC? They have a reputation for spreading disease, but what pathogens are actually spread to people from rats these days?

jrockway 3y ago
I think you can see how big the actual problem is when looking at how solved the problem is. Since the problem isn't solved and life goes on, it's probably not a huge deal. (Bed bugs are probably similar. They really freak people out, but they don't spread disease and many people don't even know that they're being bitten, so they're everywhere. People being freaked out doesn't justify a more expensive response. That said, mosquitos do spread disease and aren't exactly eradicated, so maybe my heuristic is wrong.)
- DoingIsLearning 3y ago
  The heuristic is off. Urban rats are a vector for Leptospirosis. The only thing those three (rats, bedbugs, mosquitos) have in common is that they reproduce faster than we can kill them and they hide well.
  - neom 3y ago
    According to this there are less than 200 cases of Leptospirosis a year in the US and most of them are in Hawaii. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9629868/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9629868/
    - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
      That's because people have learned to keep their food where rats can't pee on it. Doesn't mean they are not disease carrying.
      - dvngnt_ 3y ago
        did you ever see that house episode with mos def
- standardUser 3y ago
  To be fair, bedbugs have been shown to cause mental health issues in victims as well has major issues with housing security. I can't think of any such extreme problems with rats! At least in the last couple centuries.
huehehue 3y ago
Not trying to be facetious, the wikipedia page seems like a good starting point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_in_New_York_City At a glance, rats are definitely ridden with fleas and disease, but there doesn't seem to be good data on transmissions. I'd still prefer not to have 10,000 tiny little catalysts for a new wave of the plague scuttling under my feet.
- phyzome 3y ago
  « The pathogens they carry include bacteria such as Clostridium difficile (C. diff), Salmonella, E. coli, and Leptospira. » Well, humans definitely carry at least three of those as well... « it is unclear how infectious the rats are to residents. » And yeah, that's the crux of it. We don't actually know if it's a problem!
aidos 3y ago
Obviously a little different but we got pet rats recently and they’re lovely little creatures. Super inquisitive and you have to have a steady stream of ways to hide their food as a form of enrichment so they don’t get bored. Apparently you can’t readily keep them on their own because they become depressed with the solitude. 10/10 pet, would recommend.
- neom 3y ago
  Hello fellow rat owner. I've had 13 rats through the years! :) One other great thing about rats, you can train them like their little dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9z0c1hjnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9z0c1hjnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKLVm6rxaJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKLVm6rxaJA (and yes, can't keep a rat alone, they get very depressed)
  - aidos 3y ago
    That’s a lot of rats, but I can see why! I was totally naive and unprepared going into it. As a result, we got ours from people who had done a terrible job with them. The cage was just wire levels with nothing for them to explore. They’re not well socialised and were slowly working to build their trust. I should have known that people who would name a pet “fridge” wouldn’t be prize keepers. Anyway, we’re giving them a much better life and I’m glad we got them out of there.
    - neom 3y ago
      Apple sauce, whipped cream or watered down peanut butter on the finger, you'll be best friends in no time. ;)
neom 3y ago
The Black Death may not have been spread by rats after all: https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/black-death-may-not-have-been-spread-rats-after-al https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/black-death-may-not-have-b... Papers: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.2209816119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.2209816119 and https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1715640115 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1715640115
- no_wizard 3y ago
  My bet is rats were a vector, but not the only significant vector. Its extremely hard to trace all vectors for a disease with pinpoint levels of accuracy to say definitively that any one thing was the major cause. At least, this is what I've learned studying public health and how diseases spread thus far, anyway
mkmk 3y ago
One metric that comes to mind is the # of restaurants that have a health code inspection that detected presence of rats or mice. This out-of-date post I found seems to have disturbingly high % of restaurants with evidence of infestation, which certainly seems like a problem. https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/02/rat-map-shows-where-rats-hang-out-in-nyc https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/02/rat-map-shows-where-rat...
- forgotmypw17 3y ago
  You could say that this metric puts under question their impact though?
- smelendez 3y ago
  I made that map, funny to see it here a decade later. In the end, I had kind of came to the same conclusion as gp. Rodents are all around in NYC and other big cities, and it’s good we take steps like inspections and trapping to keep them in check, but we’ve probably all eaten in restaurants (and homes) with rodents without getting sick.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    NYC has many more rats per capita than other large cities, and comparatively does not keep them in check. They may not spread a lot of disease (which is unconfirmed, by the way, we really have no idea how much healthier the city would be without them), but they do steal stuff, break things, and cause other problems. Example: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-chipotle-besieged-by-avocado-hungry-rats-employees-say/2771636/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-chipotle-besieged-...
forgotmypw17 3y ago
I agree with you. I like them, and I think they get a bad rap. I think specieism is the next frontier after racism. The same things we used to say about fellow humans that are no longer accepted will be just as not OK to say about rats 50 years from now, and their lives and experiences will be considered important. Rats, mice, and other creatures, get a lot of blame for things they couldn't possibly be doing, just because of how prevalent they are everywhere. They are just an easy target that cannot speak for themselves and often do not have anyone to defend them. For example, the Black Plague theory which was accepted as fact for decades, if not centuries, was recently put under question: https://www.google.com/search?q=black+plague+rats https://www.google.com/search?q=black+plague+rats
- getwiththeprog 3y ago
  "I think specieism is the next frontier after racism" The logical conclusion to this is that we should not keep pets as slaves and should instead build habitat for wild animals to live as they choose.
- yadaeno 3y ago
  Gees I sure hope humanity doesn’t sink to this level where we sacrifice out quality of live for the sake of pests. Humanity already has enough problems to deal with. Go to South America or work near trash. When rats start falling through the ceiling when you’re trying to sleep your opinions will quickly change.
- jochem9 3y ago
  I have rats walking in my sealing. It's an old house with many gaps and many people living close with similar gappy homes. It smells, I cannot sleep and just in general makes me feel uneasy at home. Damn right I'm killing these intruders.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
IIAOPSW 3y ago
Rats are the reboot mammals just in case there's another meteor.
tootie 3y ago
Same. They are rarely an active nuisance although they certainly can be. I don't recall seeing all that many recently and it actually jibes with their results. The stations I frequent ranked near the bottom.
- standardUser 3y ago
  During pandemic I would see "herds" of rats going from trash pile to trash pile at night. But even then, I didn't hear about any material harm done to anyone. Other than being freaked out by a crowd of 15 rats at once!
lbotos 3y ago
They rip into trash, they spread food bits around, they chew holes through things to get access to food. (I live in Brooklyn)
klondike_ 3y ago
Brown rats are an invasive species in North America and interfere with the natural ecosystem. Some places have gone to great lengths to eliminate them https://www.alberta.ca/history-of-rat-control-in-alberta https://www.alberta.ca/history-of-rat-control-in-alberta
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Rats (and pigeons) are arguably the natural ecosystem in NYC, though.
up2isomorphism 3y ago
That’s seems very rare” you obviously do not live in the regular part of the city.
marwis 3y ago
It's no fun when rats run towards you straight into your foot or get on your shoe. Especially the former happens almost daily to me in LIC.
NikkiA 3y ago
Rats are everywhere, everywhere in the world, if you think you're more than a few metres from a rat right now you're probably either on the ISS or in denial.

jrockway 3y ago

I think you can see how big the actual problem is when looking at how solved the problem is. Since the problem isn't solved and life goes on, it's probably not a huge deal. (Bed bugs are probably similar. They really freak people out, but they don't spread disease and many people don't even know that they're being bitten, so they're everywhere. People being freaked out doesn't justify a more expensive response. That said, mosquitos do spread disease and aren't exactly eradicated, so maybe my heuristic is wrong.)

DoingIsLearning 3y ago
The heuristic is off. Urban rats are a vector for Leptospirosis. The only thing those three (rats, bedbugs, mosquitos) have in common is that they reproduce faster than we can kill them and they hide well.
- neom 3y ago
  According to this there are less than 200 cases of Leptospirosis a year in the US and most of them are in Hawaii. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9629868/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9629868/
  - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
    That's because people have learned to keep their food where rats can't pee on it. Doesn't mean they are not disease carrying.
    - dvngnt_ 3y ago
      did you ever see that house episode with mos def
standardUser 3y ago
To be fair, bedbugs have been shown to cause mental health issues in victims as well has major issues with housing security. I can't think of any such extreme problems with rats! At least in the last couple centuries.

huehehue 3y ago

Not trying to be facetious, the wikipedia page seems like a good starting point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_in_New_York_City At a glance, rats are definitely ridden with fleas and disease, but there doesn't seem to be good data on transmissions. I'd still prefer not to have 10,000 tiny little catalysts for a new wave of the plague scuttling under my feet.

phyzome 3y ago
« The pathogens they carry include bacteria such as Clostridium difficile (C. diff), Salmonella, E. coli, and Leptospira. » Well, humans definitely carry at least three of those as well... « it is unclear how infectious the rats are to residents. » And yeah, that's the crux of it. We don't actually know if it's a problem!

aidos 3y ago

Obviously a little different but we got pet rats recently and they’re lovely little creatures. Super inquisitive and you have to have a steady stream of ways to hide their food as a form of enrichment so they don’t get bored. Apparently you can’t readily keep them on their own because they become depressed with the solitude. 10/10 pet, would recommend.

neom 3y ago
Hello fellow rat owner. I've had 13 rats through the years! :) One other great thing about rats, you can train them like their little dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9z0c1hjnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9z0c1hjnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKLVm6rxaJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKLVm6rxaJA (and yes, can't keep a rat alone, they get very depressed)
- aidos 3y ago
  That’s a lot of rats, but I can see why! I was totally naive and unprepared going into it. As a result, we got ours from people who had done a terrible job with them. The cage was just wire levels with nothing for them to explore. They’re not well socialised and were slowly working to build their trust. I should have known that people who would name a pet “fridge” wouldn’t be prize keepers. Anyway, we’re giving them a much better life and I’m glad we got them out of there.
  - neom 3y ago
    Apple sauce, whipped cream or watered down peanut butter on the finger, you'll be best friends in no time. ;)

neom 3y ago

The Black Death may not have been spread by rats after all: https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/black-death-may-not-have-been-spread-rats-after-al https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/black-death-may-not-have-b... Papers: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.2209816119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.2209816119 and https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1715640115 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1715640115

no_wizard 3y ago
My bet is rats were a vector, but not the only significant vector. Its extremely hard to trace all vectors for a disease with pinpoint levels of accuracy to say definitively that any one thing was the major cause. At least, this is what I've learned studying public health and how diseases spread thus far, anyway

mkmk 3y ago

One metric that comes to mind is the # of restaurants that have a health code inspection that detected presence of rats or mice. This out-of-date post I found seems to have disturbingly high % of restaurants with evidence of infestation, which certainly seems like a problem. https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/02/rat-map-shows-where-rats-hang-out-in-nyc https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/02/rat-map-shows-where-rat...

forgotmypw17 3y ago
You could say that this metric puts under question their impact though?
smelendez 3y ago
I made that map, funny to see it here a decade later. In the end, I had kind of came to the same conclusion as gp. Rodents are all around in NYC and other big cities, and it’s good we take steps like inspections and trapping to keep them in check, but we’ve probably all eaten in restaurants (and homes) with rodents without getting sick.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  NYC has many more rats per capita than other large cities, and comparatively does not keep them in check. They may not spread a lot of disease (which is unconfirmed, by the way, we really have no idea how much healthier the city would be without them), but they do steal stuff, break things, and cause other problems. Example: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-chipotle-besieged-by-avocado-hungry-rats-employees-say/2771636/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-chipotle-besieged-...

forgotmypw17 3y ago

I agree with you. I like them, and I think they get a bad rap. I think specieism is the next frontier after racism. The same things we used to say about fellow humans that are no longer accepted will be just as not OK to say about rats 50 years from now, and their lives and experiences will be considered important. Rats, mice, and other creatures, get a lot of blame for things they couldn't possibly be doing, just because of how prevalent they are everywhere. They are just an easy target that cannot speak for themselves and often do not have anyone to defend them. For example, the Black Plague theory which was accepted as fact for decades, if not centuries, was recently put under question: https://www.google.com/search?q=black+plague+rats https://www.google.com/search?q=black+plague+rats

getwiththeprog 3y ago
"I think specieism is the next frontier after racism" The logical conclusion to this is that we should not keep pets as slaves and should instead build habitat for wild animals to live as they choose.
yadaeno 3y ago
Gees I sure hope humanity doesn’t sink to this level where we sacrifice out quality of live for the sake of pests. Humanity already has enough problems to deal with. Go to South America or work near trash. When rats start falling through the ceiling when you’re trying to sleep your opinions will quickly change.
jochem9 3y ago
I have rats walking in my sealing. It's an old house with many gaps and many people living close with similar gappy homes. It smells, I cannot sleep and just in general makes me feel uneasy at home. Damn right I'm killing these intruders.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

IIAOPSW 3y ago

Rats are the reboot mammals just in case there's another meteor.

tootie 3y ago

Same. They are rarely an active nuisance although they certainly can be. I don't recall seeing all that many recently and it actually jibes with their results. The stations I frequent ranked near the bottom.

standardUser 3y ago
During pandemic I would see "herds" of rats going from trash pile to trash pile at night. But even then, I didn't hear about any material harm done to anyone. Other than being freaked out by a crowd of 15 rats at once!

lbotos 3y ago

They rip into trash, they spread food bits around, they chew holes through things to get access to food. (I live in Brooklyn)

klondike_ 3y ago

Brown rats are an invasive species in North America and interfere with the natural ecosystem. Some places have gone to great lengths to eliminate them https://www.alberta.ca/history-of-rat-control-in-alberta https://www.alberta.ca/history-of-rat-control-in-alberta

ceejayoz 3y ago
Rats (and pigeons) are arguably the natural ecosystem in NYC, though.

up2isomorphism 3y ago

That’s seems very rare” you obviously do not live in the regular part of the city.

marwis 3y ago

It's no fun when rats run towards you straight into your foot or get on your shoe. Especially the former happens almost daily to me in LIC.

NikkiA 3y ago

Rats are everywhere, everywhere in the world, if you think you're more than a few metres from a rat right now you're probably either on the ISS or in denial.