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Yes, I am a web programmer, and I understand that anytime you are using the internet you are downloading a copy of whatever content it is that you are accessing

by xeckr 3y ago

Yes, I am a web programmer, and I understand that anytime you are using the internet you are downloading a copy of whatever content it is that you are accessing. You don't even have to invoke fair use here, as the copyright holder gives you the right to access a copy by putting it on the open internet. That does not mean that you automatically have a right to do whatever you please with this copy. If you want to redistribute the content, or use it as part of some commercial process, then you absolutely have to discuss this with the copyright holder, and they have every right to deny you if you cannot agree on the terms. That is the meaning of "all rights reserved". Not all copies are equal. Feel free to enjoy a copy of "Oops!... I Did It Again" that you paid for on iTunes. But download the same file using P2P, and the record company might just have the book thrown at you. The two files are identical copies, but the difference is that the copyright holder gave you the right to listen to the first (in exchange for money) but not the second. Furthermore, downloading the song from iTunes gives you the right to listen to it, but not to play it on loudspeakers at the next conference that you are organizing. To obtain the right to use it for that purpose, you have to negotiate with the record label. Note once again that these restrictions do not apply for works that are e.g. in the public domain, which you are free to use in any way you want. I am in no way arguing for "outlawing useful new technologies", anymore than I am for outlawing cameras because they can be used to create bootleg copies of the latest blockbuster movie. Feel free to train GenAI on copies of works that you have a right to use for that purpose: either because they are in the public domain, or because the copyright owner explicitly gave everyone the right to use a copy of the work to train a GenAI, or because you negotiated a licensing agreement with the copyright owner.

csallen 3y ago
I agree that copyright owners have rights. But what you're missing in your response is the fact that these rights are limited. And their limits are very specifically outlined by the law. When it comes to their works, copyright owners have the right to block reproduction (e.g. making a copy), adaptation (e.g. turning a book into a movie version), distribution (e.g. selling copies), public performance, and public display. That's it. And there are even some important exceptions for Fair Use, too. They can't block other things. There is no law granting them the power to do so. For example. they can't stop me from talking about a copy of their work. They can't stop me from analyzing the copy. They can't stop me from learning from it. From describing it. From memorizing it. From looking at it whenever I want. From extracting lessons from it, or extracting patterns from it. Or from hiring a friend or a company to do these things for me. Or from writing a computer program that does these things. Etc. It's perfectly legal for me to browse the web, look at copyrighted images that my browser has downloaded, study them, consider the patterns and techniques within them, and then re-use these same or similar techniques to create new art, so long as it's not so close to the original that it counts as a reproduction or adaptation. There is no power granted to copyright holders to limit my ability to do this, nor should their be. This kind of inspired learning is the engine of societal creativity. Copyright was not created to kill this. Copyright was created to help artists profit from their exact work and its likeness, not to capture, own, and profit from inspiration that springs forth from the rest of society. Yes, I get why it sucks for artists that the technology now exists for computers to also engage in the above process. But I still don't think we should be modifying or creating laws to stop that. Artists can adapt their business models, just like people in every other field when tech starts to compete. The world will be fine.

by xeckr 3y ago

csallen 3y ago

I agree that copyright owners have rights. But what you're missing in your response is the fact that these rights are limited. And their limits are very specifically outlined by the law. When it comes to their works, copyright owners have the right to block reproduction (e.g. making a copy), adaptation (e.g. turning a book into a movie version), distribution (e.g. selling copies), public performance, and public display. That's it. And there are even some important exceptions for Fair Use, too. They can't block other things. There is no law granting them the power to do so. For example. they can't stop me from talking about a copy of their work. They can't stop me from analyzing the copy. They can't stop me from learning from it. From describing it. From memorizing it. From looking at it whenever I want. From extracting lessons from it, or extracting patterns from it. Or from hiring a friend or a company to do these things for me. Or from writing a computer program that does these things. Etc. It's perfectly legal for me to browse the web, look at copyrighted images that my browser has downloaded, study them, consider the patterns and techniques within them, and then re-use these same or similar techniques to create new art, so long as it's not so close to the original that it counts as a reproduction or adaptation. There is no power granted to copyright holders to limit my ability to do this, nor should their be. This kind of inspired learning is the engine of societal creativity. Copyright was not created to kill this. Copyright was created to help artists profit from their exact work and its likeness, not to capture, own, and profit from inspiration that springs forth from the rest of society. Yes, I get why it sucks for artists that the technology now exists for computers to also engage in the above process. But I still don't think we should be modifying or creating laws to stop that. Artists can adapt their business models, just like people in every other field when tech starts to compete. The world will be fine.