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On a tangentially related note, big companies often say that they perform pay benchmarking by contributing compensation data to third-parties to then determine

On a tangentially related note, big companies often say that they perform pay benchmarking by contributing compensation data to third-parties to then determine the market rate for employees. After reading the article, it strikes me as a very similar process, just for a different type of market (housing vs labor). Did anyone try to challenge pay benchmarking in court?

alistairSH 3y ago
From what I'm reading, the key distinction is RealPage pressures landlords to adhere to the pricing suggestions. That's what puts them over the line (not simply "because algorithms" as the headlines and teasers state).
- happytiger 3y ago
  We dig the coal out of the ground, refine it, ship it to where it’s to be used, but we don’t encourage you to use it so that makes what we do ok. Not an attack, but isn’t that almost the same logic they’re using?
  - scarby2 3y ago
    maybe. But the thing here as well is not just that they suggest pricing but that it's not necessarily prioritizing occupancy. If you have the ability to pressure more than one party into allowing lower occupancy you can set an artificial floor on pricing or slow the amounts rents should fall during a downturn.
    - happytiger 3y ago
      It’s a simple case of conspiracy price fixing. It’s just our laws haven’t caught up to the distributed nature of the collusion.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    Not sure what coal mining has to do with price fixing? My very simplistic take on this... - offering a sampling of current rents in the area for $50/month [not price fixing] - offering a sampling of current rents in the area for $50/month, and then facilitating collusion between land-lords, and also pressuring landlords to adhere to rent rates [price fixing] Obviously, there's a lot more nuance there, and I'm not a lawyer, but seems to be the gist of it.
    - krainboltgreene 3y ago
      > Not sure what coal mining has to do with price fixing? You don't recognize an analogy?
      - happytiger 3y ago
        Just… thank you.
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        Not that one, apparently.
  - deelowe 3y ago
    Not at all. The issue at hand is that the company required at least 80% compliance with their pricing suggestions as a stipulation of using the service. This gave them the ability to influence the market. If you didn't accept their listing recommendation 80% of the time, they kicked you off the platform.
    - happytiger 3y ago
      Good point.
foxyv 3y ago
It seems like a lot of tech is used to launder normally illegal activities. Want to create an illegal taxi company? Just make it an app. Want to discriminate based on race? Hide it behind facial recognition and predictive policing. Collude for wage suppression? Create a wages database and "suggested wage" for HR. Want to copy other people's art but need to file off the serial numbers? Dali has your back. Copy other people's code without a license? AI is on it.
- culi 3y ago
  The facial recognition one is particularly concerning and explicit. Police stations regularly reapprove contracts with systems that can be as high as 96% false positives. It gives police a scapegoat to do what they wanna do https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/detroit-police-chief-admits-facial-recognition-is-wrong-96-of-the-time/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/detroit-police-c...
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    sentencing guidelines are automated in some jurisdictions. they recommend based on historical data. so if you had a racist sheriff, guess who's getting longer sentences. this stuff has been simmering before AI got branded. it's definitely AI washing.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Who cares if it has a 96% false positive if it looks good in front of the honorable Grant A. Warrant.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Want to discriminate based on race? Hide it behind facial recognition and predictive policing. Or gate employment on requiring college/high level academic degrees.
  - supportengineer 3y ago
    I often see newly-posted job descriptions for exactly what I am doing now, and they state that a master's degree is required (which I don't have).
IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
There is a related (linked) article that talks about replacing the word algorith, with "a guy named Bob" and seeing if the result is illegal. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... Separately, I find it sad that CEOs are thinking topline only and not thinking about their bottom line. The CAC for all new renters is not fixed costs, its variable, and increasing CAC vs leaving it close to 0 (and reducing related payroll) would be a viable strategy for a lot of buildings. CEO just haven't done the hard work/math
feedsmgmt 3y ago
The practice of pay benchmarking using private data is egregious because of the very detailed publicly available data from BLS.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I went to BLS site (as well as Googling with site:bls.gov) to see what very detailed data I could find to help me benchmark software engineer compensation. I didn’t find anything usable. Could you send a URL for data for a company who wants to understand cash plus equity competitive positioning relative to the top 10 highest-paying large SWE employers?
  - feedsmgmt 3y ago
    Navigaton on the site isn't great and that's a fair criticism. Software jobs salary data is here and you can drill down to state level etc https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ghaff 3y ago
Companies use third-party services all the time to benchmark prices of all sorts of things--including compensation and other benefits. And it's not even clear why this is a problem. The extreme opposite position is to have the minimum amount of pricing transparency which would make it hard to have a meaningful market.
- berniedurfee 3y ago
  Market benchmarks are used to set minimums or maximums for compensation or pricing that workers or consumers will just barely tolerate. That’s the threshold these benchmarks measure.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Read up on the Cravath system for determining lawyer salary[1]. Every top "biglaw" firm in the US pays the same salary and publishes them. This has been found not be collusion because there is no agreement or requirement they stick to the price. Every once in a while, one law firm will defect and raise salary, and every other law firm will update theirs within a week to the new rate. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/ https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
- fsckboy 3y ago
  the law firms in that category have their pick when it comes to hiring new graduates; those are coveted jobs and coveted salaries. Students who want to work at a corporate firm who don't get those offers wish they did. So it's difficult to argue that this aspect of the system is oppressing anybody. after this initial hire, your salary growth (and segue to lucrative partnership) will be based on your performance and how much they want to keep you, again, undermining the notion that you are somehow locked into an oppressive system.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Who said anything about oppression? I'm talking about the definition of illegal collusion and price fixing. There is nothing illegal about squeezing poor people for every penny they have.
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      does your point hinge on that one word, or do you really think I didn't say anything of value that you could address more broadly?
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        Not really. I was responding to a question about price fixing with respect to employment law. It seems like you want to have some unrelated debate about what group is more oppressed than other groups. >after this initial hire, your salary growth (and segue to lucrative partnership) will be based on your performance and how much they want to keep you, again, undermining the notion that you are somehow locked into an oppressive system. as a point of clarification, Biglaw salaries is fixed for associates up to 8th year. Yes they can still be fired, yes they can be made partner. Yes they make more than an Afghani dirt farmer.
lispisok 3y ago
RealPage wasnt suggesting rent prices based on local market conditions, they were telling you what to set your rent at and if you did not comply you got kicked. It was a cartel you joined and you got booted if you didnt go along with the rest.
m463 3y ago
We should get fine amounts and sentencing guidelines to adopt the same sorts of algorithms.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

alistairSH 3y ago

From what I'm reading, the key distinction is RealPage pressures landlords to adhere to the pricing suggestions. That's what puts them over the line (not simply "because algorithms" as the headlines and teasers state).

happytiger 3y ago
We dig the coal out of the ground, refine it, ship it to where it’s to be used, but we don’t encourage you to use it so that makes what we do ok. Not an attack, but isn’t that almost the same logic they’re using?
- scarby2 3y ago
  maybe. But the thing here as well is not just that they suggest pricing but that it's not necessarily prioritizing occupancy. If you have the ability to pressure more than one party into allowing lower occupancy you can set an artificial floor on pricing or slow the amounts rents should fall during a downturn.
  - happytiger 3y ago
    It’s a simple case of conspiracy price fixing. It’s just our laws haven’t caught up to the distributed nature of the collusion.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  Not sure what coal mining has to do with price fixing? My very simplistic take on this... - offering a sampling of current rents in the area for $50/month [not price fixing] - offering a sampling of current rents in the area for $50/month, and then facilitating collusion between land-lords, and also pressuring landlords to adhere to rent rates [price fixing] Obviously, there's a lot more nuance there, and I'm not a lawyer, but seems to be the gist of it.
  - krainboltgreene 3y ago
    > Not sure what coal mining has to do with price fixing? You don't recognize an analogy?
    - happytiger 3y ago
      Just… thank you.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      Not that one, apparently.
- deelowe 3y ago
  Not at all. The issue at hand is that the company required at least 80% compliance with their pricing suggestions as a stipulation of using the service. This gave them the ability to influence the market. If you didn't accept their listing recommendation 80% of the time, they kicked you off the platform.
  - happytiger 3y ago
    Good point.

foxyv 3y ago

It seems like a lot of tech is used to launder normally illegal activities. Want to create an illegal taxi company? Just make it an app. Want to discriminate based on race? Hide it behind facial recognition and predictive policing. Collude for wage suppression? Create a wages database and "suggested wage" for HR. Want to copy other people's art but need to file off the serial numbers? Dali has your back. Copy other people's code without a license? AI is on it.

culi 3y ago
The facial recognition one is particularly concerning and explicit. Police stations regularly reapprove contracts with systems that can be as high as 96% false positives. It gives police a scapegoat to do what they wanna do https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/detroit-police-chief-admits-facial-recognition-is-wrong-96-of-the-time/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/detroit-police-c...
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  sentencing guidelines are automated in some jurisdictions. they recommend based on historical data. so if you had a racist sheriff, guess who's getting longer sentences. this stuff has been simmering before AI got branded. it's definitely AI washing.
- foxyv 3y ago
  Who cares if it has a 96% false positive if it looks good in front of the honorable Grant A. Warrant.
mschuster91 3y ago
> Want to discriminate based on race? Hide it behind facial recognition and predictive policing. Or gate employment on requiring college/high level academic degrees.
- supportengineer 3y ago
  I often see newly-posted job descriptions for exactly what I am doing now, and they state that a master's degree is required (which I don't have).

IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago

There is a related (linked) article that talks about replacing the word algorith, with "a guy named Bob" and seeing if the result is illegal. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... Separately, I find it sad that CEOs are thinking topline only and not thinking about their bottom line. The CAC for all new renters is not fixed costs, its variable, and increasing CAC vs leaving it close to 0 (and reducing related payroll) would be a viable strategy for a lot of buildings. CEO just haven't done the hard work/math

feedsmgmt 3y ago

The practice of pay benchmarking using private data is egregious because of the very detailed publicly available data from BLS.

sokoloff 3y ago
I went to BLS site (as well as Googling with site:bls.gov) to see what very detailed data I could find to help me benchmark software engineer compensation. I didn’t find anything usable. Could you send a URL for data for a company who wants to understand cash plus equity competitive positioning relative to the top 10 highest-paying large SWE employers?
- feedsmgmt 3y ago
  Navigaton on the site isn't great and that's a fair criticism. Software jobs salary data is here and you can drill down to state level etc https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ghaff 3y ago

Companies use third-party services all the time to benchmark prices of all sorts of things--including compensation and other benefits. And it's not even clear why this is a problem. The extreme opposite position is to have the minimum amount of pricing transparency which would make it hard to have a meaningful market.

berniedurfee 3y ago
Market benchmarks are used to set minimums or maximums for compensation or pricing that workers or consumers will just barely tolerate. That’s the threshold these benchmarks measure.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Read up on the Cravath system for determining lawyer salary[1]. Every top "biglaw" firm in the US pays the same salary and publishes them. This has been found not be collusion because there is no agreement or requirement they stick to the price. Every once in a while, one law firm will defect and raise salary, and every other law firm will update theirs within a week to the new rate. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/ https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/

fsckboy 3y ago
the law firms in that category have their pick when it comes to hiring new graduates; those are coveted jobs and coveted salaries. Students who want to work at a corporate firm who don't get those offers wish they did. So it's difficult to argue that this aspect of the system is oppressing anybody. after this initial hire, your salary growth (and segue to lucrative partnership) will be based on your performance and how much they want to keep you, again, undermining the notion that you are somehow locked into an oppressive system.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Who said anything about oppression? I'm talking about the definition of illegal collusion and price fixing. There is nothing illegal about squeezing poor people for every penny they have.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    does your point hinge on that one word, or do you really think I didn't say anything of value that you could address more broadly?
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Not really. I was responding to a question about price fixing with respect to employment law. It seems like you want to have some unrelated debate about what group is more oppressed than other groups. >after this initial hire, your salary growth (and segue to lucrative partnership) will be based on your performance and how much they want to keep you, again, undermining the notion that you are somehow locked into an oppressive system. as a point of clarification, Biglaw salaries is fixed for associates up to 8th year. Yes they can still be fired, yes they can be made partner. Yes they make more than an Afghani dirt farmer.

lispisok 3y ago

RealPage wasnt suggesting rent prices based on local market conditions, they were telling you what to set your rent at and if you did not comply you got kicked. It was a cartel you joined and you got booted if you didnt go along with the rest.

m463 3y ago

We should get fine amounts and sentencing guidelines to adopt the same sorts of algorithms.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]