4 ms·

Maybe I'm old but, we already had this... it was called the <object> tag and it let you embed Java applets. We also had Java Web Start. I feel like this soluti

by throwaway2016a 3y ago

Maybe I'm old but, we already had this... it was called the <object> tag and it let you embed Java applets. We also had Java Web Start. I feel like this solution in superior to both those things but it still feels like a step backwards.

pjmlp 3y ago
We basically took a 10 years delay to get back the productive plugin based frameworks from 2010.
- jayd16 3y ago
  But now there's a chance they'll run on the iPhone.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Safari is still behind, as naturally Apple would rather have native apps. The same reason why Flash was a persona non grata still apply. Safari is the only reason why we still don't update CVs from Web Developer into ChromeOS Developer.
eweise 3y ago
Yep. Wrote a java applet for DHL back in 2003 to process the export shipment paperwork. Used Java Web Start to deploy. Worked great. Can't remember why applets were killed. Thinking maybe it was because of Microsoft.
- _ZeD_ 3y ago
  it was chrome. Always have been. java applets means more money to oracle and less to google/apple/whatever
- diegof79 3y ago
  I also did Java development back then. Applets died for many reasons... First, the Java plugin required a JDK installation, which was a considerable download. At the time, many apps/tools included some JDK version, but as a developer, you can't count on that. It took many years for Java to have a modular JDK, but when it happened, applets were already gone. By comparison, the user experience of Flash was orders of magnitude better. UI programming was problematic. AWT was ugly, and Swing was too slow for the machines then. In comparison, Flash had tools to create excellent interactive games and small UIs. Also, as HTML/CSS/JS supported more and more UI patterns, there wasn't a need to use applets for complex UIs. The JVM is sandboxed, but there are so many moving pieces and outdated JDKs installed that they become a security problem and attackers started to poke into the applet plugin bugs to find holes. Finally, another issue shared with frameworks like ActiveX or browser plugins was DOM integration. When you mix an applet with a page, the applet feels alien. You can't navigate inside the applet without breaking the browser navigation, and using apples for small UI pieces (Sun's home page used to have a news ticker applet) is an overkill. The best use case for applets or ActiveX was video playback, but browsers added native support. That's why Java Web Start was more interesting than applets. But, at the time, Sun was spread too thin. Adobe did the same with the Rich Internet Apps and Flex but with a better execution (until the iPhone killed the RIA hype).
nvm0n2 3y ago
Not sure it's superior. The object tag let you extend the browser with genuinely new capabilities, like access to hardware or APIs that JavaScript didn't expose. WASM doesn't do this. Also, object tag let languages compete on the quality of their runtime. This also doesn't allow that. You can't ever do better than V8, and V8 isn't going to care about features unique to your language. The main win is that the browser will keep the WASM interpreter/JIT up to date for you, and it will drop OS privs for you, and it will download and cache the bytecode for you.

pjmlp 3y ago

We basically took a 10 years delay to get back the productive plugin based frameworks from 2010.

jayd16 3y ago
But now there's a chance they'll run on the iPhone.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Safari is still behind, as naturally Apple would rather have native apps. The same reason why Flash was a persona non grata still apply. Safari is the only reason why we still don't update CVs from Web Developer into ChromeOS Developer.

eweise 3y ago

Yep. Wrote a java applet for DHL back in 2003 to process the export shipment paperwork. Used Java Web Start to deploy. Worked great. Can't remember why applets were killed. Thinking maybe it was because of Microsoft.

_ZeD_ 3y ago
it was chrome. Always have been. java applets means more money to oracle and less to google/apple/whatever
diegof79 3y ago
I also did Java development back then. Applets died for many reasons... First, the Java plugin required a JDK installation, which was a considerable download. At the time, many apps/tools included some JDK version, but as a developer, you can't count on that. It took many years for Java to have a modular JDK, but when it happened, applets were already gone. By comparison, the user experience of Flash was orders of magnitude better. UI programming was problematic. AWT was ugly, and Swing was too slow for the machines then. In comparison, Flash had tools to create excellent interactive games and small UIs. Also, as HTML/CSS/JS supported more and more UI patterns, there wasn't a need to use applets for complex UIs. The JVM is sandboxed, but there are so many moving pieces and outdated JDKs installed that they become a security problem and attackers started to poke into the applet plugin bugs to find holes. Finally, another issue shared with frameworks like ActiveX or browser plugins was DOM integration. When you mix an applet with a page, the applet feels alien. You can't navigate inside the applet without breaking the browser navigation, and using apples for small UI pieces (Sun's home page used to have a news ticker applet) is an overkill. The best use case for applets or ActiveX was video playback, but browsers added native support. That's why Java Web Start was more interesting than applets. But, at the time, Sun was spread too thin. Adobe did the same with the Rich Internet Apps and Flex but with a better execution (until the iPhone killed the RIA hype).

nvm0n2 3y ago

Not sure it's superior. The object tag let you extend the browser with genuinely new capabilities, like access to hardware or APIs that JavaScript didn't expose. WASM doesn't do this. Also, object tag let languages compete on the quality of their runtime. This also doesn't allow that. You can't ever do better than V8, and V8 isn't going to care about features unique to your language. The main win is that the browser will keep the WASM interpreter/JIT up to date for you, and it will drop OS privs for you, and it will download and cache the bytecode for you.