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So what you need to do is regulate what they can do with the data, not forbid personalized ads. By the way, here in Europe we have universal healthcare, maybe

So what you need to do is regulate what they can do with the data, not forbid personalized ads. By the way, here in Europe we have universal healthcare, maybe is something the US should consider?

thfuran 3y ago
Is there any good reason not to both legally protect privacy and ban the largest part of the market for the invasively collected data (which seems to me to fall nearly under regulating what can be done with the data)?
- kwanbix 3y ago
  Are you willing to pay for all internet websites then?
  - mcv 3y ago
    Banning personalised ads does not mean banning all ads. Although personally, I'm no fan of any kind of ads, and I wouldn't mind if the entire ad industry disappeared. And if that means ad-driven websites disappear too, I don't see that as a big loss. The best websites are not ad-driven.
    - kwanbix 3y ago
      Do you think a generic ad has the same value as a personalzied ad?
      - mcv 3y ago
        I think they're all worthless.
        RestlessMind 3y ago
        You are wrong. Personalized ads are worth far more to advertisers and publishers. Also to the end users based on their actual behavior. Source - worked on ads for a few years at FAANG.
        mcv 3y ago
        Yeah, but they're worthless to me. I don't think I've ever clicked one of those personalised ads. Their personalisation sucks, they generally show stuff that's not remotely relevant to me, and I've long ago learned not to click any ads.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      > Banning personalised ads does not mean banning all ads. People prefer personalized ads. I know many friends who like Instagram ads, but don't care about ads on some random news site.
  - xigoi 3y ago
    Many websites don't have ads, and I'd be happy if all others disappeared.
    - chroma 3y ago
      Ok but you’re not the only person on the internet. Other people have different preferences, and in fact some even enjoy personalized ads. Nobody is forcing you to look at ads on the internet, so why is it fair to force others to not look at ads on the internet?
      - xigoi 3y ago
        If some people like being spied on and some don't, why would you oppose the legislation that websites should let people choose for themselves if they want to be spied on?
      - mcv 3y ago
        The solution is obvious: make personalised ads and ad profiles opt-in. Those who want them can choose to give up their privacy and eye-ball capacity, while the rest of can be free from those intrusions.
      - thfuran 3y ago
        And I’m sure that some people like being paid sub-livable wages in company scrip. But that the preference exists doesn’t mean it’s in society’s best interest to let those people get what they want.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Can you please share the list of websites you use which don't serve ads? Would love to see an internet experience without ads and without stealing the content via adblockers.
      - xigoi 3y ago
        It's not possible to provide an exhaustive list, but for example: * Hacker News (has promoted content, but without tracking) * Lobste.rs * Wikipedia * Mastodon * Project Euler * Notabug.org * Lingva Translate * Documentation for numerous FOSS projects * Various personal blogs Honestly, it's hard for me to find websites that I regularly voluntarily use and do contain ads.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    I think the prevalence of free-to-use websites is a collosal market failure. They're a massive distortion to markets, far bigger than Uber running around losing billions a year, and they also put their thumbs on the scale more directly by deciding that certain things/topics can't be advertised or advertised on.
drcongo 3y ago
We don't have universal life insurance in Europe though, maybe think things through a bit. Your arguments are so thin and bad faith that I'm convinced you're just trolling now.
- kwanbix 3y ago
  What do you mean? Of course we have universal healthcare, at least in Germany we have, and in Spain also, same for Switzerland, and Netherlands. But is funny, people want all (most?) things free, nobody wants to pay for news for example, but they don't want ads at the same time. Makes no sense at all.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    > What do you mean? Of course we have universal healthcare, at least in Germany we have, and in Spain also, same for Switzerland, and Netherlands. Healthcare != life insurance - they're very different things. Are you deliberately conflating them because it suits your argument? > But is funny, people want all (most?) things free, nobody wants to pay for news for example, but they don't want ads at the same time. Again, you're conflating two groups of people because it suits your internal narrative and makes you feel superior. I don't want ads, but I'm happy to pay for things, and I'm also happy to just not use a service that wants to spy on me and sell my data like YouTube and Facebook. According to your statement I don't exist. > Makes no sense at all. That's because you've made it all up.
RestlessMind 3y ago
Only a minority of the world population has universal healthcare. There is a big world outside of Europe and the US and most of it lacks healthcare. Maybe we should focus on the first order problem (for this thread) rather than trying to bring universal healthcare to the entire world (impossible in our lifetime).

So what you need to do is regulate what they can do with the data, not forbid personalized ads. By the way, here in Europe we have universal healthcare, maybe is something the US should consider?

thfuran 3y ago

Is there any good reason not to both legally protect privacy and ban the largest part of the market for the invasively collected data (which seems to me to fall nearly under regulating what can be done with the data)?

kwanbix 3y ago
Are you willing to pay for all internet websites then?
- mcv 3y ago
  Banning personalised ads does not mean banning all ads. Although personally, I'm no fan of any kind of ads, and I wouldn't mind if the entire ad industry disappeared. And if that means ad-driven websites disappear too, I don't see that as a big loss. The best websites are not ad-driven.
  - kwanbix 3y ago
    Do you think a generic ad has the same value as a personalzied ad?
    - mcv 3y ago
      I think they're all worthless.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        You are wrong. Personalized ads are worth far more to advertisers and publishers. Also to the end users based on their actual behavior. Source - worked on ads for a few years at FAANG.
        mcv 3y ago
        Yeah, but they're worthless to me. I don't think I've ever clicked one of those personalised ads. Their personalisation sucks, they generally show stuff that's not remotely relevant to me, and I've long ago learned not to click any ads.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    > Banning personalised ads does not mean banning all ads. People prefer personalized ads. I know many friends who like Instagram ads, but don't care about ads on some random news site.
- xigoi 3y ago
  Many websites don't have ads, and I'd be happy if all others disappeared.
  - chroma 3y ago
    Ok but you’re not the only person on the internet. Other people have different preferences, and in fact some even enjoy personalized ads. Nobody is forcing you to look at ads on the internet, so why is it fair to force others to not look at ads on the internet?
    - xigoi 3y ago
      If some people like being spied on and some don't, why would you oppose the legislation that websites should let people choose for themselves if they want to be spied on?
    - mcv 3y ago
      The solution is obvious: make personalised ads and ad profiles opt-in. Those who want them can choose to give up their privacy and eye-ball capacity, while the rest of can be free from those intrusions.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      And I’m sure that some people like being paid sub-livable wages in company scrip. But that the preference exists doesn’t mean it’s in society’s best interest to let those people get what they want.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Can you please share the list of websites you use which don't serve ads? Would love to see an internet experience without ads and without stealing the content via adblockers.
    - xigoi 3y ago
      It's not possible to provide an exhaustive list, but for example: * Hacker News (has promoted content, but without tracking) * Lobste.rs * Wikipedia * Mastodon * Project Euler * Notabug.org * Lingva Translate * Documentation for numerous FOSS projects * Various personal blogs Honestly, it's hard for me to find websites that I regularly voluntarily use and do contain ads.
- thfuran 3y ago
  I think the prevalence of free-to-use websites is a collosal market failure. They're a massive distortion to markets, far bigger than Uber running around losing billions a year, and they also put their thumbs on the scale more directly by deciding that certain things/topics can't be advertised or advertised on.

drcongo 3y ago

We don't have universal life insurance in Europe though, maybe think things through a bit. Your arguments are so thin and bad faith that I'm convinced you're just trolling now.

kwanbix 3y ago
What do you mean? Of course we have universal healthcare, at least in Germany we have, and in Spain also, same for Switzerland, and Netherlands. But is funny, people want all (most?) things free, nobody wants to pay for news for example, but they don't want ads at the same time. Makes no sense at all.
- drcongo 3y ago
  > What do you mean? Of course we have universal healthcare, at least in Germany we have, and in Spain also, same for Switzerland, and Netherlands. Healthcare != life insurance - they're very different things. Are you deliberately conflating them because it suits your argument? > But is funny, people want all (most?) things free, nobody wants to pay for news for example, but they don't want ads at the same time. Again, you're conflating two groups of people because it suits your internal narrative and makes you feel superior. I don't want ads, but I'm happy to pay for things, and I'm also happy to just not use a service that wants to spy on me and sell my data like YouTube and Facebook. According to your statement I don't exist. > Makes no sense at all. That's because you've made it all up.

RestlessMind 3y ago

Only a minority of the world population has universal healthcare. There is a big world outside of Europe and the US and most of it lacks healthcare. Maybe we should focus on the first order problem (for this thread) rather than trying to bring universal healthcare to the entire world (impossible in our lifetime).