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Before switching to big tech I worked 8y in video games - and agree. Many practices of gamedevs - like designers literally just exploring stuff without any pla

by bartwr 3y ago

Before switching to big tech I worked 8y in video games - and agree. Many practices of gamedevs - like designers literally just exploring stuff without any plan for years before commiting to any feature - would make SV directors and PMs (not to mention investors) scream. :) This is a double edged sword. On the one hand, this aimless exploration is needed in pursuit of real fun (as opposed to compulsive loops of mobile games). On the other hand, this leads to crunch, games being buggy and always delayed, and how most fun games always had very troubled production and sometimes literally destroy the studios/teams. More organized companies I worked at (Ubisoft) had less crunch but also less fun games (cookie cutter AC formula). The messy toxic crunch workplaces (CD Projekt Red) I was at produced amazingly fun cult games...

hoseja 3y ago
Why is everyone piling on CD Projekt, they just had a massive growth after W3 they didn't manage quite right, along with perhaps overcommitting to C2077. I'm allergic to it, is there any evidence of "messy toxic crunch" before or after the one bad (in large part because shitty consoles are a thing) launch? There are way more egregious US game companies but CD Projekt gets mentioned way too often. Cyberpunk is fixed and very good now BTW.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > is there any evidence of "messy toxic crunch" before or after the one bad (in large part because shitty consoles are a thing) launch? "There was no crunch, as long as we don't count all that crunch before the launch, and all that crunch after the launch..." There's no need to be so defensive. We can rightfully criticize any employer who mistreats their employees, without giving a free pass to ones that might mistreat their employees slightly less than others. There was exactly one pre-existing comment in this thread that mentioned CDPR at all; nobody is targeting them unfairly.
- bartwr 3y ago
  The evidence - people's statements and experiences. I worked there for 3y and can give "on the record" statement that it was the most toxic company I ever worked for. 80h work weeks, management shouting at people and calling their work "shit", constant lies, firing people on the spot for minor disagreements and many many more.
internet101010 3y ago
I would imagine having experience at both ends of the spectrum has helped you come up with some sort of ideal balance between the two? Like maybe being flexible on deadlines but strict on overall process, to-dos, and separation of work?
- bartwr 3y ago
  I know everyone looks for a perfect "process" - and hence all agiles, scrums, whatever, but I am a bit cynical (or naive? not sure which one haha) and don't think there is one, all are bs (and implemented in a toxic org stay toxic), and all that is needed is a great team. :) Basically a mix of people with different attitudes, different seniority levels, working great together, being curious, exploratory, but also responsible and keeping deadlines when pushed. I worked on some teams like this - like Marc Levoy's HDR+ team at Google, it was amazing. We had unlimited freedom to explore, but the team had very senior, responsible, and accountable people and when a deadline was approaching (sometimes self-imposed) were becoming very disciplined. But one thing I am sure - if your goal is something creative and delightful - never let the business side, VCs and other "money squeezers" decide your process, features, goals.
tivert 3y ago
> Many practices of gamedevs - like designers literally just exploring stuff without any plan for years before commiting to any feature - would make SV directors and PMs (not to mention investors) scream. :) This is a double edged sword. On the one hand, this aimless exploration is needed in pursuit of real fun (as opposed to compulsive loops of mobile games). IMHO, that exploratory attitude is needed to make any innovation at all. Without it, you get a bunch of cookie-cutter junk aping something else. Which unsurprisingly, is a lot of what silicon valley does. Years ago it was social, last couple years it was crypto, now it's generative AI, etc. Almost all the talk about innovation is just hype and marketing. If you need solid estimates, you'll never stray too far off the path others have already blazed.
englishspot 3y ago
I find this interesting. in all the jobs I've had, accountability has always been key. folks above my paygrade have always tried to find ways to produce metrics for our work. I've never been at a shop where free reign to explore was deeply embedded in corporate culture.
psunavy03 3y ago
From the end user perspective, as someone who's been gaming since 8-bit NES days, the Ezio trilogy was still up there in terms of some of the best story and gameplay I've seen packaged together. Then again, I'm also a huge history nerd, so the "what if all the conspiracy theories were true" premise was fun. I do agree the bean counters at Ubisoft seem obsessed with the idea of running the franchise until the wheels fall off anymore.

by bartwr 3y ago

hoseja 3y ago

Why is everyone piling on CD Projekt, they just had a massive growth after W3 they didn't manage quite right, along with perhaps overcommitting to C2077. I'm allergic to it, is there any evidence of "messy toxic crunch" before or after the one bad (in large part because shitty consoles are a thing) launch? There are way more egregious US game companies but CD Projekt gets mentioned way too often. Cyberpunk is fixed and very good now BTW.

kibwen 3y ago
> is there any evidence of "messy toxic crunch" before or after the one bad (in large part because shitty consoles are a thing) launch? "There was no crunch, as long as we don't count all that crunch before the launch, and all that crunch after the launch..." There's no need to be so defensive. We can rightfully criticize any employer who mistreats their employees, without giving a free pass to ones that might mistreat their employees slightly less than others. There was exactly one pre-existing comment in this thread that mentioned CDPR at all; nobody is targeting them unfairly.
bartwr 3y ago
The evidence - people's statements and experiences. I worked there for 3y and can give "on the record" statement that it was the most toxic company I ever worked for. 80h work weeks, management shouting at people and calling their work "shit", constant lies, firing people on the spot for minor disagreements and many many more.

internet101010 3y ago

I would imagine having experience at both ends of the spectrum has helped you come up with some sort of ideal balance between the two? Like maybe being flexible on deadlines but strict on overall process, to-dos, and separation of work?

bartwr 3y ago
I know everyone looks for a perfect "process" - and hence all agiles, scrums, whatever, but I am a bit cynical (or naive? not sure which one haha) and don't think there is one, all are bs (and implemented in a toxic org stay toxic), and all that is needed is a great team. :) Basically a mix of people with different attitudes, different seniority levels, working great together, being curious, exploratory, but also responsible and keeping deadlines when pushed. I worked on some teams like this - like Marc Levoy's HDR+ team at Google, it was amazing. We had unlimited freedom to explore, but the team had very senior, responsible, and accountable people and when a deadline was approaching (sometimes self-imposed) were becoming very disciplined. But one thing I am sure - if your goal is something creative and delightful - never let the business side, VCs and other "money squeezers" decide your process, features, goals.

tivert 3y ago

> Many practices of gamedevs - like designers literally just exploring stuff without any plan for years before commiting to any feature - would make SV directors and PMs (not to mention investors) scream. :) This is a double edged sword. On the one hand, this aimless exploration is needed in pursuit of real fun (as opposed to compulsive loops of mobile games). IMHO, that exploratory attitude is needed to make any innovation at all. Without it, you get a bunch of cookie-cutter junk aping something else. Which unsurprisingly, is a lot of what silicon valley does. Years ago it was social, last couple years it was crypto, now it's generative AI, etc. Almost all the talk about innovation is just hype and marketing. If you need solid estimates, you'll never stray too far off the path others have already blazed.

englishspot 3y ago

I find this interesting. in all the jobs I've had, accountability has always been key. folks above my paygrade have always tried to find ways to produce metrics for our work. I've never been at a shop where free reign to explore was deeply embedded in corporate culture.

psunavy03 3y ago

From the end user perspective, as someone who's been gaming since 8-bit NES days, the Ezio trilogy was still up there in terms of some of the best story and gameplay I've seen packaged together. Then again, I'm also a huge history nerd, so the "what if all the conspiracy theories were true" premise was fun. I do agree the bean counters at Ubisoft seem obsessed with the idea of running the franchise until the wheels fall off anymore.