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I think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. Generally, people don't

by bartwr 3y ago

I think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. Generally, people don't care if the phone uses expensive 5x lens or not. I don't really know who does. :) They are at some position and want to quickly take a picture - phone refusing to take a photo or taking an out of focus one would be terrible for them and cause outrage. Image Quality is somewhat important, but 1000x less important than capturing the right moment. If you miss the moment - it's gone forever. I worked as a researcher at the Google HDR+ team, developing algorithms for Pixel 2/3/4/5/6 camera. And consistently we would get both user studies/bugs/feedback, as well as guidance from PMs that responsiveness/latency and "taking any usable photo at all as fast as possible" was more important than the Image Quality. I'll admit, we didn't always deliver and often compromised (doing in software what everyone else was doing in hardware back then is HARD), but this principle blocked some cool IQ improvements from launching - and I think was the right call, even if some of those were mine (like high quality multi frame super res in every photo).

The_Colonel 3y ago
> think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. The author didn't claim that iPhone has it wrong, just that their personal expectation and preference is different. > Generally, people don't care if the phone uses expensive 5x lens or not. I don't really know who does. :) That's a strange claim. I know many people who value decent quality zoom, even if they're not otherwise photography geeks. > we would get both user studies/bugs/feedback, as well as guidance from PMs that responsiveness/latency and "taking any usable photo at all as fast as possible" was more important than the Image Quality What I don't like about these studies is that it collapses different user groups and different use cases into one average "taking any usable photo at all as fast as possible". The reality is much more colorful and often depends on a situation. When taking a photo of an animal then quick shutter speed is indeed important. But when I'm taking a photo of a static subject, esp. in challenging light conditions, I care more about quality.
- bartwr 3y ago
  The latter is the reason why we launched Night Sight. And a ton of people were pissed that it's slow and their subjects won't stay still for so long. We were not conflating user groups, just that if one group is literally 95% of the market and all photos taken, then you optimize the default app and the default mode for them and make the experience super polished. The remaining 5% of power users can use dedicated apps...
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    > The latter is the reason why we launched Night Sight. And a ton of people were pissed that it's slow and their subjects won't stay still for so long. I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to the original problem of camera switching on its own, but to bite - there's certainly something possible in between super quick photos and those which need multiple seconds. > The remaining 5% of power users can use dedicated apps... One thing to consider is that for those 5% of power users the camera is a more important consideration in their buying decisions than the rest. Another issue here is that you can't really use a different app without losing a lot of the Google Camera specific functionality.
tomn 3y ago
> I think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. They also never claimed that what they want is the ideal behaviour for everyone. Wanting a different behaviour from the "good enough, works for most people" solution is perfectly valid, and doesn't necessarily imply that you think the default is bad. > Generally, people don't care if the phone uses expensive 5x lens or not. I don't really know who does I'm not sure the author does really. They just want the option to be able to chose to step back to get a higher quality photo. Camera quality is a big selling point for iPhones, so it's not too surprising that some people think their phone should help them take higher quality photos instead of letting them make bad choices. They said that they want the 5x option to only use the 5x lens, but their bigger complaint is that they can't see what it's doing until too late. I'm sure they would be satisfied with an option to turn on an indicator of which lens is being used, or an unobtrusive message which says "move back 10cm for a better photo". Heck, the google camera even does this, when prompting you to turn on night sight if it's too dark for the normal mode. That's a very similar trade-off.
- bartwr 3y ago
  I don't have the latest iPhone, but mine shows a "macro" icon immediately when it switches to the wide lens? And I can either move back, or turn it off.

by bartwr 3y ago

The_Colonel 3y ago

> think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. The author didn't claim that iPhone has it wrong, just that their personal expectation and preference is different. > Generally, people don't care if the phone uses expensive 5x lens or not. I don't really know who does. :) That's a strange claim. I know many people who value decent quality zoom, even if they're not otherwise photography geeks. > we would get both user studies/bugs/feedback, as well as guidance from PMs that responsiveness/latency and "taking any usable photo at all as fast as possible" was more important than the Image Quality What I don't like about these studies is that it collapses different user groups and different use cases into one average "taking any usable photo at all as fast as possible". The reality is much more colorful and often depends on a situation. When taking a photo of an animal then quick shutter speed is indeed important. But when I'm taking a photo of a static subject, esp. in challenging light conditions, I care more about quality.

bartwr 3y ago
The latter is the reason why we launched Night Sight. And a ton of people were pissed that it's slow and their subjects won't stay still for so long. We were not conflating user groups, just that if one group is literally 95% of the market and all photos taken, then you optimize the default app and the default mode for them and make the experience super polished. The remaining 5% of power users can use dedicated apps...
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > The latter is the reason why we launched Night Sight. And a ton of people were pissed that it's slow and their subjects won't stay still for so long. I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to the original problem of camera switching on its own, but to bite - there's certainly something possible in between super quick photos and those which need multiple seconds. > The remaining 5% of power users can use dedicated apps... One thing to consider is that for those 5% of power users the camera is a more important consideration in their buying decisions than the rest. Another issue here is that you can't really use a different app without losing a lot of the Google Camera specific functionality.

tomn 3y ago

> I think the author doesn't understand consumer products, especially cameras and what most people care about (taking photos!) and need. They also never claimed that what they want is the ideal behaviour for everyone. Wanting a different behaviour from the "good enough, works for most people" solution is perfectly valid, and doesn't necessarily imply that you think the default is bad. > Generally, people don't care if the phone uses expensive 5x lens or not. I don't really know who does I'm not sure the author does really. They just want the option to be able to chose to step back to get a higher quality photo. Camera quality is a big selling point for iPhones, so it's not too surprising that some people think their phone should help them take higher quality photos instead of letting them make bad choices. They said that they want the 5x option to only use the 5x lens, but their bigger complaint is that they can't see what it's doing until too late. I'm sure they would be satisfied with an option to turn on an indicator of which lens is being used, or an unobtrusive message which says "move back 10cm for a better photo". Heck, the google camera even does this, when prompting you to turn on night sight if it's too dark for the normal mode. That's a very similar trade-off.

bartwr 3y ago
I don't have the latest iPhone, but mine shows a "macro" icon immediately when it switches to the wide lens? And I can either move back, or turn it off.